Dear Brexiteer. What we need you to do now.

So well done, first of all. You listened to the arguments, the same ones I listened to. You heard all the same information I did, you listened to the same debates that I did, but you voted to leave. And you won. I take that – it was a democratic process and sometimes in the democratic process you lose, as I have done.

The referendum has activated the political energies of people who haven’t been interested in politics for some time, so we are told, and many of them are like you, who voted to leave. So here’s the plea of the losing side to you now.

Firstly, don’t stop – don’t stop with your political passion and activism, because we need you now. We need you to be active, we need you to keep talking to the people who you trusted with this vote, and we need you to hold their feet to the fire. There will be a General election in 2020, if not before, and by then, you will know whether their promises are good or not. So make it clear to them that you are watching to see if they were telling the truth or not.

If you voted leave because of all the money which will now go to the NHS, make sure it does. If it doesn’t vote them out, because they lied to you.

If you voted leave because of all the immigration, and it turns out that the deals that they do mean immigration will not go down, then vote them out, because they lied to you.

If you voted leave because of all the Brussels Bureaucracy, and it turns our companies still have to conform with all brussels bureaucracy in order to be part of a trade agreement, then vote them out, because they lied to you.

If you voted leave because you were reassured that the economy would be as good as or better than it is now, and it turns out that the pound has fallen, and businesses have left, and people have lost their jobs, then vote them out, because they lied to you.

If you find your rights – maternity and paternity leave, breaks at work, sick pay, health and social benefits – are taken away, when we were told they would not, then vote them out, because they lied to you.

My feeling is that the issues will remain. Immigration will not go down, mainly because we don’t train people in this country, we import them, which creates an underclass of white working class and second and third generation immigrants who aren’t trained or educated for work. With fewer workers rights, that’s only going to increase, rather than diminish.

So please, if you find that they lied to you, vote them out. And vote for the people who will tell you uncomfortable, complicated truths, rather than easy, simple lies.

 

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About frpip

Priest, Dad, A long way away. You can call me Father Father Father.
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506 Responses to Dear Brexiteer. What we need you to do now.

  1. telescoper says:

    Reblogged this on In the Dark and commented:
    I’m too desolated by the referendum result – and too busy – to comment for now, but here’s a post that encapsulates a lot of what I feel.

    I continue to hope that we will remain in the EU. There may be another referendum next year. I think that’s always been Boris’ plan.

    But in the meantime, Cameron has resigned and we’ll get a new right-wing government with new policies without a General Election having taken place. It’s a coup.

    Those of you who voted BrExit because of the alleged democratic failings of the EU should ponder on that.

    • Vivien says:

      There is no democracy in the EU. Don’t forget they are the ones who can’t decide even where to hold the EU parliament permanently and waste our money moving between two centres twice a year.If you think our politicians cheated their expensed just think of the £billions wasted by UNELECTED EU commissioners. And don’t forget. If the IN vote had won then whose to say that Turkey wouldn’t be let into EU, as Cameron tried to say wouldn’t happen. Still, we can watch the rest of the EU welcome millions of the 75 million Turkish muslims who would have the freedom to live in the Schengen zone.

      • telescoper says:

        Turkey isn’t going to join the EU any time soon – and I mean in decades – we or any other country could veto it. Greece certainly would.

        Saying there is no democracy in the EU is palpable nonsense. I maintain my position that the EU is more democratic than the UK. The UK has 825 unelected lawmakers; the UK has none.

        Your last sentence suggests that your real motivation is hatred of Muslims.

      • Anonymous says:

        So, now that we’ve removed ourselves from the EU because they are “Undemocratic” when do we do the same to the house of lords and the Queen?

      • frpip says:

        One thing that really gave me a hollow laugh – after all the talk of becoming more democratic, taking our country back, a Brexit friend of mine said reassuringly that this didn’t mean leaving at all – it was just a negotiation position, and the new PM would be able to use it to get us a really good deal to stay in the EU. As though the democractic process of voting leave, which I respect, for the aim of becoming a better democracy, which I admire, should automatically be ignored in favour of a back room deal between the new PM and the EU.

      • Sarah says:

        I fail to see why you would have to bring up the religion of these Turkish migrants? It shows how xenophobic, bigoted and, frankly, narrow minded you are.

      • Ally Brynn says:

        You know the funny thing. In order to get a trade deal, the EU will force us into the Schengen area, as it won’t do a deal without free movement. By voting out you lost us our opt-out, and now our borders will probably have to be open for the Turks. That’s a day I will laugh..a lot

      • Anonymous says:

        Your argument collapsed when you couldn’t write Turkish without adding Muslim. Do you still check the wardrobe for the bogeyman?

      • Kolchack says:

        The main sponsor of Turkey’s membership was the UK. The UK has always pressed for a wider rather than deeper EU.

        British Civil servants are not scrutinised by 27/28 Ministers unlike EU commissioners. There is only one.

      • Stephen Davenport says:

        Ah. One of those who was lied to.

      • Andy says:

        What utter nonsense. The European Parliament is real, and exists, and vigorously debates all legislation proposed by member states or the Commission, in many cases amending it or even rejecting it. Just because the UK has divorced itself from this democratic congress for decades, sending MEPs from UKIP, for example, who never attend, does not make it less democratic. Apart from that no laws are agreed without our direct say so from our very own elected government representatives – Dave, George, Theresa, etc. They can stop or alter anything they don’t like. It it is simply a LIE that the EU imposes laws on us. Its rubbish.

        Who appoints EU Commissioners? WE DO!!!!! If you don’t like them, complain to your MP. They’re our gift.

        Re Turkey – there is as much chance of them being admitted to the EU than finding the moon is made of cheese and inhabited by giant mice. Grow up FFS!

      • Rik Davidson says:

        and what about the Turkish Christians, or is it just the muslims you want to keep out?

      • Rik Davidson says:

        I take it you wont mind the Christians Turkish then?

      • M.W.E.Hampel says:

        we in Germany live with the turk´s since the 60´s…it is not so bad… a lot of them are OK…and an entry to the EU does not happen , who told you so? why are you not informed? why do a lot of people in UK lost there brain? Goebels would have loved your argumantation ,what a sad week for all of us in Europe.

      • No one ever seems to mention that there are a lot of UKIP MEPS who have been more than happy to gain over £200K a year in expenses – seems rather ironic to me!

      • You fell for it. Hook line and sinker. Not your fault really.

    • John Bostock says:

      We do not vote for governments or Prime Ministers, we vote for a single MP, the party with the most MP’s gets to form a government, that is the way it is, we did not get an election When Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair, nor did we get one when John Major took over from Maggie Thatcher, etc. You may not like the way our country operates, but that’s the way it is.

      • frpip says:

        Then vote for a single MP who told you the truth, and don’t vote for one who didn’t. The liars will be ousted, the truth tellers will stay in. That’s how democracy works. I can’t think why you find that complex. Whether one party or another gets in is beside the point. Whether liars or honest people get in is another.

      • to frpip (since I can’t seem to reply to a reply to a comment): I

        In the US, people hate government, and hate the congress in particular, call them all liars, then vote for the incumbent because all they remember is that they were promised pork and they got to eat pork. “…my guy is honest, and a good guy, he brought home the bacon for our district, just like he promised, it’s the others who are all crooked corrupt liars.”

        If they got lied to about more complex questions and indirect effects of the action of the legislature as a whole, a lot of that bounces off because it’s complex. I’d imagine parliament works the same way.

      • frpip says:

        Thank you for this – very helpful post. How we can hold our politicians to account is a huge issue, as we elect them on a whole raft of issues. But I think at the heart of it is our own personal ability to hear the truth when it is less appetising than we want it to be.

      • HRH says:

        “That’s the way it is” therein lies the problem. People are comfortable with “the way it is” .
        So when “the other half” of the country shake the tree all hell breaks loose!

    • Anonymous says:

      A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn’t be at the ‘back of the queue’ after all and that our ‘special relationship’ was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be ‘orderly’ and stressed the UK would continue to be a ‘close partner’ of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.

      • frpip says:

        Actually Obama has reaffirmed that we will be at the back of the queue 😉 The French Foreign Minister said the Le Touquet agreement is unlikely to hold for very long. I suspect, as I said if you read the post before this one, that in reality not a great deal will change – but that probably includes immigration and “freedom”.

      • telescoper says:

        I sincerely hope there is an orderly BrExit negation.

      • telescoper says:

        Of course we are still in the European Union and look set to remain for many years. That’s probably why there was a temporary rally when Cameron didn’t invoke Article 50 immediately.

        In fact it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that we remain indefinitely. I think there could be a general election in time to put a halt to it.

      • frpip says:

        I do wonder if that’s Cameron’s plan – and perhaps the plan of the conservative party – to in effect make the next general election another referendum on the referendum… I hope not, it would be a terrible attack on democracy. We voted, and they ought to honour that. Much as I didn’t enjoy the result, it has to be respected.

      • telescoper says:

        Under our constitution a referendum has no status. It is merely advisory. A new government will have a new mandate if it stands on a manifesto that involves remaining in the EU.

      • frpip says:

        That’s technically true, and morally dodgy to my mind 🙂

      • Glenys Arthur says:

        Always concerns me when an individual posts as ‘Anonymous’, to be honest. Le Touquet will be down the pan by October, and the US stated very clearly that we will be at the back of the queue. Let’s not forget that Obama is in the final leg of office and the strongest candidate seems to be Trump….so we are unlikely to be in the queue at all. Here? Nothing will change because the promises were as dust in the wind

    • Dear Pip
      You have written so well, and with such compassion, and that is reason enough to thank you; then I have read on down and see each time you respond, how sensitive that is.
      As one of those who voted to Leave, for reasons which have nothing whatever to do with racism etc, and everything to do with hope, opportunity, hospitality and compassion – and utter frustration with the demands of a distant and disconnected EU – I can still appreciate so much of what is being said here.
      We have a future – and what that becomes is truly up to each of us: the decision is taken, and if we begin to nurture the beginnings of hope, we need not return to this place, or be urged to ‘vote again’ as may yet happen… With prayers, deep sympathy, and finally thankfulness,

      • frpip says:

        Thank you Lavender. Whatever the results of yesterday, tomorrow is our focus, and there is no reason we can’t work together to make that better.

      • Brian S says:

        This is really a general comment What is done is done, so there is little point rehashing arguments that were needed a week ago. Suffice it to say that I would echo the comments of those who challenge the notion of the EU being significantly “undemocratic” – it has a very different insitutional architecture to that which we are used to and as a result was poorly understood, but in no sense was it a lesser expression of democratic principles than our own political system.
        The virtue of Frpip’s post is that it points us towards the future. The first concern is that the complex process of disentangling Britain from the EU \nd then of recomposing what we have just dissolved will block the political agenda for years ahead – if not a full decade (the “transition costs” of Brexit has always been the elephant in the room).
        The second is that it a huge political polarising event like this must inevitably have an effect on the structure of our political system and political alignments (some have compared it to the 19th century repeal of the Corn Laws – not an unfair comparison). The open question is what shape will it take. One prospect is that it will lead to the dominance of reactionary and nativist/racist currents – the right wing of the Conservative Party reinforced by UKIP et al. What I think Frpipp raises is an alternative – many of the concerns that motivated the Leave supporters were shared across much of the in/out divide – where we differed was in our diagnosis: Leave supporters attributed our problems primarily to the influence of the EU (especially “freedom of movement”); most for Remain believed that responsibility lay with our own government and believed that the Leave coalition’s agenda would only make things worse.
        The next decade will provide a practical test for those two arguments: and if the Remain diagnosis proves to have been the sounder one, there will be both a need and a prospect of new political alignments that will seek to address the real roots of our political and social troubles.

  2. Eliot Argy says:

    They’ve already backtracked on the NHS. Pound down by 10%. 100bn off the FTSE. And this is just the beginning. And the Brexiteers will be punching the air with these “succeesses”. That is more in line with their thinking. Minor damage has occurred around the globe, and I don’t think others are going to forget this. Apart from that

    • frpip says:

      Yes, and the Gov of the Bank of England has promised £250bn to settle the banks. Or 30 years worth of contributions to the EU.

    • Nick Stettner says:

      Who is “they”? The official Leave campaign did not include Farage, so what he said earlier about the NHS is hardly relevant, despite the BBC presenter hassling him. Oh and the FTSE has already recovered two thirds of it’s initial losses. After one day. You may be hoping for the sky to fall in as a result of the Leave vote, but it won’t.

      • frpip says:

        What the official Leave campaign said about the NHS is relevant – their posters were full of the £350m per week that we could have for the NHS. I didn’t mention Farage. I’m not hoping for the sky to fall in. Why do you think I did?
        Grace in victory, old chap. Not vituperation.

      • Nick Stettner says:

        frpip My comment above was in answer to Eliot Argy, I should have made that clear.

      • frpip says:

        Oh dear. My ability to work out WordPress comments section is very poor. My apologies.

      • Nick Stettner says:

        frpip. Although I voted Leave, yours is one of the more thought-provoking and measured articles from someone that wanted Remain. There are a lot of recriminations flying around today, understandable I guess. The real blame for the state of the EU lies, I believe, with the EU apparatchiks, but unfortunately, we were stuck with them!

        Anyway…if only the debate beforehand could have stayed this reasoned!

      • frpip says:

        Thank you. I feel there was so much misinformation on both sides flying around that we never got the debate we deserved – which was more or less the same, I feelin the Scottish Indyref.

      • Kolchack says:

        Boris also said the £350m was “a mistake”.

      • Rik Davidson says:

        the ftse has increased but the billions lost have not and can not be recovered.

      • Anonymous says:

        It was an ITV presenter not BBC

  3. Rob Atkinson says:

    Reblogged this on Life, Leeds United, the Universe & Everything and commented:
    The best take I’ve seen on Brexit.

  4. David Dean says:

    Both sides lied to us Rob, they always do. The eye opener for me was if you exclude the votes in Scotland and London – for obvious reasons – then the vote was 60-40 (my estimate) in favour of leave. The big cities, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham were to vote remain but Birmingham voted leave. We were lied to in thinking it was 50-50 but it never was. Football and politics don’t mix – bad enough having to deal with Cellino. MOT – have we signed that Swede yet?

    • Anonymous says:

      You can’t cherry pick which votes count. It was a UK referendum with one vote per person all counting equally

    • Rik Davidson says:

      if take the national vote on age it was over 70% remain from the people this will actualy affect. we are leaving because a generation who may not survive to feel the implications of this voted to leave and have destroyed the lives of our countries children

    • Mark N. says:

      There are no “obvious reasons” to disfranchise, even rhetorically, any part of the country.

  5. Anonymous says:

    I have read what u say and I personally will vote them out t if I find that they don’t keep there word but we have to give them the benefit of the doubt at this time

    • frpip says:

      I sincerely hope you are right to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they deliver on all their promises, I will never have been more happy to be wrong.

    • We have to give them ‘the benefit of the doubt’….why? This Tory government has done nothing for the country or the people since it came to power, it has systematically stripped assets, cut services to breaking point, implemented unworkable austerity on the people who can take it the least to try and recoup losses incurred by bankers etc…they are not interested in anything other than continuing more of the same and now much worse as they have played this little charade perfectly and now have got exactly what they wanted…unfettered power to do just what they want, when they want, to whom they want…if you think otherwise then you and the other 52% are more gullible than even imagined!

      • Geoff says:

        ” …and now have got exactly what they wanted…unfettered power to do just what they want, when they want, to whom they want…”
        Caroline – The vote to leave the EU means that we will be able to take back power from Brussels. We can now make our own laws for our own people. No government has “unfettered power” because we can go back to the ballot box every five years and vote them out if we are not happy with them. The greatest threat to our democracy is minority governments caused by voting apathy by people don’t believe their vote will count. We also need to convince young people of the importance of their vote too. The older generation need less convincing. It is the EU that has “unfettered power” because we don’t know who our leaders are, nor can we throw them out.

  6. Anonymous says:

    That doesn’t imply you’ve listened to the same arguments at all.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Hahaha, gutted

  8. Me says:

    I can’t help wondering who, exactly the ‘them’ are that we should vote out. This was not a vote on party lines but a straight forward yes or no. The next general election is not due for a while and who knows what state the world will be in by then, or even if their will still be a European Union or a United Kingdom. The Scots are going to be forced to vote in yet another referendum to pacify Nicola Sturgeon and there is talk of Northern Ireland following suit. Maybe everyone should just calm down and let the dust settle. The future of this country is far too important to be decided by a group of people of any hue who just had their toys taken away.

    • frpip says:

      That’s simple – people who made promises to you about how it would be when we left. People on the Vote Leave bus, who promised £350m to go to the NHS. People who said immigration would be down. I’m not making a party political statement (two of my personal heroes in this debate were Tories). All I’m saying is – they made promises. Keep them to those promises, or vote them out. It’s not complex.

    • bgully says:

      The Scottish voted clearly to remain in the EU, not to pacify a minister who is acting according to the wishes of a majority of Scottish voters. Belittling their wish to stay in the EU makes you look like the uninformed faces I’ve seen on various news programs today. According to one such luminary a vote to leave signalled “England for the English”

  9. Anonymous says:

    The whole reason, never forget, there was a referendum, was because of the lies on immigration, how much better off we were financially in the European Union, and Turkey’s application for membership, and the implication of yet more immigration stemming from that, etc. Etc.
    Yes, we may well be lied to in the future, but I don’t think the new government – when it’s formed, or the existing government once reshuffled – will ever get away with the blatant lies we have had to swallow for years.
    This post is condescending – just like all the grandees who thought the Briitish subjects believed that ‘they knew best’ year in year out.
    If we stumble and fall, be it on our heads. At least we tried to bring about change which had to be done.
    Sitting there smugly, waiting to say ‘I told you so’ before giving the new regime a chance is petty minded, and not, as suggested in the top of this post, a congratulation to the winning side.
    It used to be called being a bad loser- and it’s the most unattractive, pessimistic trait –
    Which we would teach our children never to adopt…….

    • frpip says:

      I’m sorry you found it condescending. Cameron certainly made a promise he couldn’t keep on immigration, and that was his downfall. He couldn’t even control immigration from the rest of the world, never mind the EU. He was playing a diplomatic game with Turkey, making promises to them that he had no intention of keeping.
      I’m not saying “I told you so”. I’m saying “You won, based on promises made. Please have the political will to keep the people who made those promises to them”. I’m also saying, if it turns out that there isn’t £350m a week for the NHS, and if immigration is no better in 2020 than it is now, vote them out, because they lied to you.
      As I’ve said above, I will be very glad to be wrong, and for those promises to be kept. That’s not being a bad loser, that’s being worried about the promises made by politicians. Which on previous form is pretty reasonable.

  10. Anonymous says:

    Don’t you worry i will

  11. 3 brexiteers says:

    We don’t train (ie educate) people in this country?
    Who are you and are you mental?

    • frpip says:

      How many times have you heard businesses going on about a skills shortage? The only reason you can come into this country from outside the EU is either for family reasons, or because you are doing a job that you are “uniquely skilled” for. Also, please don’t refer to me or anyone as “mental”.

      • Carol says:

        Mental? Showing your ignorance now

      • frpip says:

        I asked someone not to refer to me or anyone else as mental, as they had done so in the comment I was replying to. Were you talking to the commment I replied to?

      • Anonymous says:

        I’m so sorry ,my comment was aimed at frpip or anyone who directs that word at somebody else in this day & age 😉

      • frpip says:

        erm, I’m FrPip – I wrote the blog post! I asked the other chap not to call people mental. 🙂

    • Crol says:

      Mental ? Now you’re showing your ignorance!

    • Anonymous says:

      I’m so sorry ,my comment was aimed at frpip or anyone who directs that word at somebody else in this day & age 😉

  12. I voted In, and will support my reasoning (my fear for the future of the disabled – of which I am one – and the elderly and the vulnerable for the future) until the day I die. I also know a good many people who will now be spending the next two or three years wondering if they will still have jobs and homes when we leave properly – if we ever do.

    Sadly, what’s done is done. So today I am allowing myself bitter disappointment; tomorrow I shall be back to campaigning and harrassing my MP and continuing to fight for a better tomorrow for everybody. Because – whatever the obstacles – it’s what we as Britons have always done, and I’m not rolling on my back in submissiveness for anybody.

  13. Murph says:

    It’s like you have taken all of my thoughts and feelings and typed them out.

  14. Reblogged this on allegracarlton and commented:
    I entirely agree with everything this post says.

  15. L bacon says:

    How sanctimonious !!!! And of course the lets leave don’t lie or give inaccurate facts or info!

  16. Anonymous says:

    are you only annoyed that you didn’t win ? How would you be feeling if remain had won ? All cheers and smiles and then the same old promises broken again……it takes balls to stand up and be counted..and as for the pound..fluctuations like this happen everytime there is a major vote etc..and a lot of people got very rich cos anyone could have said there will be a spike the wrong way followed by a giant spike down then a bit of a recovery then another spike down then some good news next week and guess what..pound goes up again

    • frpip says:

      No, I’m not annoyed I didn’t win. I’m sad I didn’t win, but not annoyed with anyone who voted for Leave. I don’t think leave voters are ignorant, or racist, or xenophobic, or stupid. I think they are decent people trying to make the right decision, just like I did. They just believed folk that I didn’t believe – and vice versa. I fear that it will be, as you say, the same old broken promises again, because for years politicians have offered simple solutions to complicated questions, and those solutions have turned out to be snake oil. I couldn’t believe it when in the BBC debate the three for Brexit said that leaving the EU was a “magic bullet” – when nearly 200,000 people came into this country from non-EU counties. If it’s a magic bullet, why didn’t we stop them?

  17. Anonymous says:

    So picking vegetables in Lincolnshire is a unique skill now , half of our industry as been shipped out to European countries with Euro grants the north as been decimated for years town’s and villages dying its not all about immigration its about getting our country back in order and giving everyone a feeling of self worth . Which I hope will happen in my lifetime x

    • frpip says:

      It’s not a unique skill, but it is a job, as any Lincolnshire farmer will tell you, that they can’t get folk to do, unless they go overseas. I hope people will get back a sense of self worth too – we share that ambition. I don’t believe that it can be done with a magic bullet, but I’m happy to be proved wrong.

    • Rick says:

      This was one of the reasons I voted out, frpip has ignored the bit that is relevant though. That is EU grants to help firms to move out of the UK to elsewhere in Europe. There are a whole host of firms that have done this simply for cheaper labour and they wouldn’t have done this off their own back as the grants are usually very large. I’ve yet to hear a remainer address this point, especially as it make so many people disaffected and usually decimates an area of the UK.

      • frpip says:

        I’m not aware of the EU giving grants to move firms elsewhere in Europe – I’d be grateful for the information. I did however find it ironic that the Brexiteers used James Dyson as a major figure, when he had moved most of his workforce out to Asia from Britan. I don’t think it’s just the EU where the problem in outsourcing lies.

      • Phil says:

        @frpip I think you will find Ford moved their transit division from Southampton to Turkey with eu funding. From what I remember, Dyson had to relocate due to costs and not being able to expand in the uk. Leaving the local people in place so jobs where not lost in their community.

      • frpip says:

        But Turkey’s not in the EU, so how can they have moved their business to other parts of the EU? Dyson relocated because of the “costs” – which were that he had to pay British workers more than Malaysian ones.

      • Tessa Howard says:

        Are these the firms you’re referring to? Perhaps you should check your facts before spreading false information. In any event, now companies will now in fact leave because the fields look a lot greener overseas.
        See http://infacts.org/eu-not-paying-uk-firms-outsource/ for more information.

        Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
        -Cadbury was bought by Kraft. Kraft shafted Cadbury. The EU had nothing to do with it.
        http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cadbury-closes-british-factory-to-move-101746

        Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
        -Yes, Jaguar Land Rover built a new factory in Slovakia. No it was not with an EU grant. And Tata is Indian so what’s that got to do with it?
        https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/11/jaguar-land-rover-factory-slovakia-uk-jobs-union

        Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
        -Peugeot did move production to Slovakia, but again without an EU grant. There was an investigation as to whether Slovakia improperly gave EU money to Peugeot, but nothing seems to have come of it.
        http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/local-news/subsidise-peugeot-jobs-axe-3983259

        Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
        -This is the only one that seems to have some truth in it. Ford did get a loan (not a grant) from the EU for their Turkish plant (which was already building most of the Transits), and after that their Southampton plant closed. The EU had already loaned money to Ford UK but that doesn’t appear to have saved it.
        http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

        British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
        -Yes, the Ajax will be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel (the capitals betray the direct copying from the Mirror headline) but not at the request of the EU. Blame our own government for that one, they commissioned it.
        http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-armys-new-fighting-vehicles-7928358

        Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
        Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
        M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
        Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
        Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
        Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
        Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
        -All these factories did indeed move overseas. But not with EU money. Sticking “with EU grant” on the end of a sentence doesn’t make it a fact.

        Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
        -What does this even mean? Hornby is still a UK company, and in fact has bought many European companies. Like many companies it moved manufacturing to China, but that’s nothing to do with the EU.

        ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
        -Yes ICI was bought by AkzoNobel, but not with EU money. I can find no evidence that factories were closed at the time. Since then, AkzoNobel has closed a couple of plants because it has built a new one in Gateshead.
        http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/56d5da5c-a7ea-11e0-afc2-00144feabdc0.html

        Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
        -Stefano Pessina isn’t a company, he’s a person. He bought out his own company, Alliance Boots, in 2007, and is now in charge of Walgreen Boots Alliance, formed in 2012. Boots was not bought with EU money. And although they are headquartered in Switzerland to avoid tax, their UK operations are firmly based here and they are a major UK employer.
        https://www.theguardian.com/business/2007/jun/21/privateequity

  18. pingu98 says:

    Reblogged this on James Devine's Blog and commented:
    Pretty much spot on!

  19. Chris says:

    Yep… Because all the ‘remainers’ are honest people… Right… Ok!

    • frpip says:

      If they are wrong, they are either telling lies or making claims they could not justify. If so, vote them out. It’s fairly simple. All I’m asking for is for politicians to be held to account for what they say.

    • daniello says:

      Did you even read the blog, Chris?

    • jueclitheroe says:

      Probably not but it’s the leavers side that have been voted in. They now have to come good with the promises, after all that’s how they got the votes. If the remainers had been voted in then they would have to do the same.

      • Rick says:

        Absolute crap, if the remainers had been voted in, it would have been more of the same or worse, as according to IDS, Cameron had given away the UK veto over EU growth, so all those saying Turkey would have joined wouldn’t be far off the mark, its not like we could have stopped it. What you remainers need to understand is that you were lied to in far worse ways than the leave side lied to those who voted out. At least with leave, we knew it was bull.

      • frpip says:

        Steady on Rick. Please don’t get aggressive. Your side won, be gracious.

      • No one has been voted in though. This wasn’t an election it was a referendum. We were voting on a descision and nothing else. It’s pretty scary that some have so massively missed the entire point.

  20. daniello says:

    Fantastic blog entry! I hope people are holding them accountable for their promises.

  21. Douglas Dwyer says:

    I believe Cameron lied about turkey

  22. Very well said, Fr Pip. I shared this on Facebook and it really struck a chord and has been shared several times by friends. I was horrified this morning to hear Nigel Farage already disassociating himself from the £350 a week claim and Boris Johnson having the gall to talk about about taking the wind out of the sails of those who play politics with immigration! We need to hold our politicians to account for what they promise us.

    • frpip says:

      Thanks Kathy. I hope that we can become truly more democratic as a result of this. I didn’t like the result, but good things can come of it if it means we are all more motivated to hold politicians to account.

    • Nick Stettner says:

      You do realise that Farage was not part of the official Leave campaign? I agree about holding politicians to account; how could we do that whilst remaining in the EU?

      • Yes, of course I do. He was however campaigning to leave the EU and was happy to associate himself with the £350 million claim when it was painted all over Boris’s Battlebus. As for holding politicians to account in the EU – we elect our MEPs, our Prime Minister forms part of the Council of Ministers and we appoint our EU Commissioner. The only part of the system we don’t elect are the bureaucrats and we don’t elect those in our own country either. And given we have an unelected second chamber here, we can hardly accuse the EU of lack of democracy.

  23. Brian Harradine says:

    The biggest lie was in 1975 , it’s only a trading agreement ! And we COULDNT vote them out !!

    • Alec Brady says:

      I voted in 1975 and it’s not true that it was only seen as a trading agreement. We knew that the Treaty of Rome spoke of laying the foundations of an ever-closer union, social progress, the constant improvement of living and working conditions, solidarity, and preserving and strengthening peace and liberty. The claim that it was only ever a trading agreement is a massive untruth, and anyone who was paying attention in 1975 knows that.

    • Kolchack says:

      I campaigned in 1975. A lot of voters then had fought in WW2. It was not about a trading agreement. It was also about preventing conflict and stabilizing democracy. That’s why the majority was so big despite Labour and Powellite opposition. Those arguments still hold.

  24. Pingback: Dear Brexiteer. What we need you to do now. | tallestjuedrop

  25. jueclitheroe says:

    Thank you for this blog.

  26. Kevin Wilson says:

    Never had you down as a sore loser Rob but I can respond to all your points: Yes I voted leave and yes I am politically active. I will hold the liars to account (after all £350 million ( go on then I’ll settle for the net figure)for the health service is not to be sniffed at) Even the liars of the Remain camp currently heaping abuse on us and predicting the end of the world is nigh .A General Election in 2020? Already called for one NOW as the Labour Party should be doing if the idiots weren’t attacking Corbyn, fighting among themselves and arguing about which Blairite millionaire should be the next leader.Please don’t continue with Project Fear,Business’ leaving, jobs lost? Of course that never happens in the EU does it? Work benefits and workers rights being lost? Again that would never hapeen in your precious EU would it. If they are cut again I will go on strike as my forefathers (and foremothers) did to gain them in the first place. They weren’t granted to us by a benevolent EU (ask the workers in Greece and France about that). You’er right about training people, we don’t or enogh but we should and will have to now. Despite all you may have read in your Grauniad not all of us who live on council estates and voted leave did so for racist or anti-immigration reasons. Like Corbyn I believe if there is free movement of finance there should be free movement of people. Yes you’re right again about the ‘white underclass’ that is already here and was created by the EU with its demands of ever more austerity – brought to us not just by the Tories but also by Labour. I voted leave and I will do so again if there is another referendum as someone on here suggests. the only reason I won’t is if the Commissioners are sacked and replaced by an electedable and accountable body and an end to austerity. If Corbyn had stuck to his instincts and campaigned on a left ticket for out maintaining his distance from the Tories and UKIP he would be a hero now and probably Prime Minister before Christmas. Instead he’s fighting for his life with the Blairite idiots who somehow convinced him to change his mind in the first place!.

    • Helen Morgan says:

      Well said. I’m not a labour supporter but I agree wholeheartedly with you. I’m very very angry with Labour right now for ignoring their voters from their ivory towers in London.

  27. Helen Morgan says:

    This should work but it doesn’t because most MPs were backing Remain. Our MP backed Remain, am I to blame him if the extra £350m a week doesn’t go to the NHS? Who do I vote out if I’m not happy? Are we to blame the Tories for this when actually they were pretty much united behind Remain? Are you assuming that Boris and Gove will be in slow charge of the government? Why would I vote out a potentially sound government because of the actions of two men? People who think this article is a good idea should never ever vote for Labour again as it’s all their fault for voting in Jeremy Corbyn and Ed Milliband and ignoring their core voters’ concerns on immigration. I’m really very cross with Labour.

  28. Pingback: A Queer View on Brexit - London Queers

  29. dimexcuses says:

    Great blog, well said. Dear Brexiteer listen, please.

  30. Patrick says:

    Xenophobia has won. This is the start of an upheaval in European geopolitics not seen since the collapse of the USSR. Spain is already suggesting joint admin of Gibraltar. There will be enormous pressure on the Irish Peace Accord. In 2 years Boris with be the most unpopular British politician of a generation.

  31. Charlotte_blueberrypie says:

    Hello Fr Pip!
    I want to give you a huge thank you for writing this. After spending the day depressed at the hostility between both sides concerned this is just what I needed to see. You approach this issue in a direct but harmonious manner without the need for malice and conflict. The level of bitterness between both parties has been saddening, although I suppose this was to be expected. Although this is the case, perpetuating the antagonism can only serve to obstruct any progress in such a complex situation. We have observed this to be true in many cases. The consistent “I hate you, you racist Brexiteer” – “I hate you even more you odious Remainer” will keep us imprisoned in the most, angry, verbal tennis match where moving forward will be most difficult. It is when someone with your approach comes along, states the facts, in a cooperative and amicable way we are more likely to get ears to listen. For the simple reason – you aren’t pushing their buttons and insulting them! Definitely my type of method. You must be a bit of a sensitive soul like me and hate conflict! 😉 Honestly, thank you again, hats off to you and keep it up! 🙂

    • frpip says:

      Many thanks for this. I’m probably too thin-skinned for much conflict, but more than that, I have seen how much people feel justified by their own passion, withotu it ever actually doing any good. I know when I get angry with people, it makes progress impossible, so I try not to bother. 🙂

  32. If you voted to leave because of entrenched social inequality, good luck to you. Because no-one in power is going to help you with that, anyway.

    • frpip says:

      I hope that’s not true, and I think the possibilites for change are there. I didn’t vote for this, but I suspect within a few days politicians from all sides, of all parties, will begin to see how we can work with this to make our politics better for all. And as for the idea that there’s no-one in power to help with that, I know for a fact that’s simply not true. MPs generally, I find, are a deeply principled lot, who feel enslaved by an electorate who want simple answers to difficult questions.

  33. Erm, how can people vote out those who made leave promises? This was a referendum not an election, we didn’t vote any of these people in. They never had any authority to action anything they were promising. That was the whole problem.

    • frpip says:

      I think I’ve said this to other comments, but we vote in MPs, not parties. I’ve voted for every party in my time, depending on who I think is most likely to be honourable and truthful, and who will try their hardest to protect the poor. If every MP was the best, most honest person that the electorate could vote for, and felt that their mandate was to be as honest as possible, then politics would be different, regardless of what party they were in.

  34. Redeye says:

    Could you not see they were lying to you? I think everyone who voted to remain could see that quite clearly. You fools.

  35. Mark says:

    You are one of those i had to put up with winning but i kept my mouth shut as its democracy now its gone the wrong way for you you cannot do the same !If you dont like it.If you dont think democracy has worked then go live some were you can be Dictator! I hope you will be happy.

    • frpip says:

      I can’t imagine any democracy in which you, I or anyone else was supposed to keep their mouth shut. Why did you keep your mouth shut? I’m not complaining about the result, I’m asking for your political activism, and the trust you have placed in those who advocated for Leave to count for something. Don’t you want that too?

  36. Jim Oswald says:

    Nice, but wait a minute.

    If we end up with decent treatment to immigrants and a decent economy they we (us Remain voters) have got what we were after, and there is no reason to complain.

    The only thing we might still be arguing about is workers rights but they will be determined by the UK electorate/ parliament. If, and I say if, we were to have a Labour Party in power then presumably workers rights would suit the left of centre people, and we would have no reason to complain.

    The only right we might lose is the right to buy a house in France, but was that ever enough to compromise our democratic right of choice by being in the EU.

    Nice article but in practice we may all end up with what we want; we just can’t see it yet.

    Best Regards.

    • frpip says:

      I think that’s very possible. I certainly think that the referndum were two sets of people more or less wanting the same thing and seeing two different ways of getting it.

  37. Suzanne says:

    And when it all works out what will you say?

  38. davecl says:

    Reblogged this on Disturbing the Universe and commented:
    Brexiters keep watch and when you realise how much you were lied to vote out the lying liers who misled you.

    • frpip says:

      Whether they are liars or not is yet to be seen.

      • davecl says:

        On some things, like the £350M per day, and that money going to the NHS, the answer is already clear. They’re also busy backpeddling on immigration. And the UK’s AAA credit rating is on its way out.

        So not exactly an auspicious start.

  39. Marie Pettigrew says:

    I couldn’t agree more with the sentiments expressed here. We have already heard Farage say the money will not go to the NHS and that saying that it would was a ‘mistake’. How many other promises will turn out to be ‘mistakes’ ? I am afraid a lot of simple people have been hoodwinked and we are now at the mercy of the far right. Bumbling Boris has suddenly got serious and we will see his true character. For all Cameron was a weak leader who failed to help the more vulnerable in society, he had more heart than we are going to see now. We are in for a really tough time so we had better prepare. The apathetic need to get off their proverbial and take action. A lot of them voted for this mess so the have to e ready to help get us out.
    I fear for the UK. Not only have we lost, we are lost!

  40. Dickie says:

    Holding campaigners accountable for the claims they made is a valid (and one might even say noble) aim. Nevertheless, I believe we *all* have a responsibility to ensure this accountability is maintained, irrespective of how we voted:a lie is a lie, regardless of whether one believed/acted upon it.

    Unfortunately, ‘voting them out’ is easier said than done. For a start, according the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946), only about 150 MPs declared themselves for the Leave campaign, which means that over 75%(!) of those in the Commons can validly say “I never made those promises”. Secondly, our constituency-based voting means that unless you live in one of the areas represented by those 150, you have no say in their re-election anyway. I believe that UKIP are the only *party* to have declared a specific aim to get the UK, and they only have the one MP.

    If the people in the requisite constituencies to vote out *all* of the 150, that would see the Conservatives lose their majority, which perhaps is as close as one can get to ‘voting them out because they lied to us’. Nevertheless, for those of us in the other 500 constituencies, I am not certain we have any direct course of ‘protest’ available to us if the various cheques that were written during the campaign bounce.

  41. Anonymous says:

    Of course this would be the first time politicians have lied to us. Patronising and sour grapes.

    • frpip says:

      Of course this isn’t the first time – but this might be a good opportunity to make sure they are held to account. I like grapes, but sour ones are a bit tart for my taste.

  42. Calm Down. says:

    What a complete nonsense. A load of despair wrapped in a cloak of sarcasm… I expect you are one of the people who want a second referendum? I for one am sick to the back teeth of reading ‘remainers’ who are all political and economic experts. Noone knows what is going to happen. Noone. We are out. Deal with it. Move on. Let us be more positive and look to a brighter future.

    • frpip says:

      I can’t see anything in the post which was sarcastic, and I am not in despair. I don’t want a second referendum, and as I have said before, I would rather lose a referendum in which lots of people voted than win one in which few people did. And I have no problem with the possibility that the future is brighter and more democratic. All that requires is for politicians to be held to their promises, which is what I was asking you to do in this post.

  43. Phil from Helshore says:

    This should apply to all elected officials all the time.

    Given the in and out campaigns were made up of significant numbers from both Labour and Conservative.

    If you think Brexit isn’t working and upto 2020 we’ve had a tory government but your sitting mp is a Remain supporter do you vote against them if they are tory but support them if they are from an opposition party. Or if your sitting mp was a Leave supporter but a member of the opposition do you support them even though your still anti their brexit position.

    It’s the weakness of voting based on a single issue.

    People need to vote on the wide range of issues that affect everyone not just one.

    It may on the other hand make people think beyond the blind politics of our party political system where your party is like your football team and no matter how bad they are they are still your team/party.

    We should all be floating voters, ignore the colour of their rosette and vote on their policies. I’ve been as bad as anyone on this last point but have made a conscious effort following the last general election that I will never do it again and I ended up voting differently at the last local election after I’d looked at the candidates and their policies. It felt difficult to do but was easier than supporting Man Utd would have been.

  44. Beritie big balls says:

    Find me a politician who tells me the truth and i will vote for him.

    • frpip says:

      I think most of them genuinely want to be truthful and principled. But those ones dont’ tend to be voted in. You’ve seen how Boris and Farage, and several folk on the Today programme this morning have already rolled back completely on both levels of immigration and on the amount of money we can spend on the NHS.

  45. Reblogged this on Stephen Carver: Author, Editor, Teacher and commented:
    Agreed. Well said.

  46. Steve says:

    Even after all the arguments have been heard and the democratic referendum has taken place, it appears that the Remainders are still scaremongering, telling all that they are right and everything is doom and gloom. Yes, things are changing, as they always do! Nothing stays the same. We all ought to knuckle down and play our part to make the best of the decisions made, democratically, and help make Britain better for all!
    If you cannot, or will not, do this, then feel free to move to an EU country. There are still plenty to choose from! It is you who are free to choose. Let’s all go forward now, together!

    • frpip says:

      I agree Steve – Remainers are grieving, deeply saddened and shocked. You’ve got to give us 48 hours or so before you lay into us for not playing our part. Grace in victory, eh.

    • Virginia says:

      I already live in a EU country, and am glad that I have had that opportunity. Others may not have it so easy in the future as a result of this vote. Despite living in another country, I am still proud to be British and am frustrated that I may now have to deny that and get citizenship of the country where I live to continue living here.

  47. Well put, thank you. Have reblogged on https://stephencarverauthor.wordpress.com/ – hope that’s OK.

  48. Brenda harte says:

    Yesterday’s history tomorrow’s a mystery.

  49. Matt says:

    I voted leave , There its out there .. I trusted DC to come back from Brussels with a list of pledges that would let us have some tools to work with to make me feel that improvements could be made to the way we live..
    Be it a better NHS ,Schools ,social care services,security. ..
    He came back with nothing and nothing was offered .. in fact we were told that it would never change..
    So people who have had enough like myself and 17 million others voted with our feet in the only way we know .. a very British revolt ..
    Now we are being called racist and xenophobic but this is just so untrue for the masses.. we just need change .
    The EU is a broken antique of a monster that isn’t up to listening to the working classes..
    We have been called inward looking but again that is not true. . I concider myself Global I want to be able to talk with anyone across the world’s economy. .
    Things will never be the same again and for that I feel that my cross mattered.
    The first time I think the working class has ever mattered…

    • frpip says:

      I agree that this is poossibly the first time in my lifetime the the working class have had a voice. Our parliamentry system and party systems make it almost impossible for people in either Tory or Labour heartlands to have an actual effect.

      • Then let’s change our system. We must have a PR system to properly represent the views of the unrepresented. Don’t vote for any candidate who does not offer this in subsequent elections and e-mail candidates to tell them why you won’t be voting for them.

      • frpip says:

        In Scotland, I think we have the best system of PR for the Scottish Parliament – we have a vote for a constituency MSP,and a regional vote, so that parties we want to vote for will get a voice too. It’s far more representative. But for my own preference, one thing would significantly change how we do politics – ban any party’s right to whip a vote.

      • John says:

        I’m sorry? You always had a vote! What nonsense is this? You have no idea in what kind of mess you have put us all. The british pound is in free fall, the euro tumbles down, ANY prospect of an imprved economy is down the drain now. Thank you, “workers”. 😦

      • Rob says:

        The working class! The working class! How elitist of you!
        I am self employed and was brought up working class! The business I have built was not with any help from dish outs from the EU or anyone from that matter! I did with hard work, blood sweat and tears and saved even penny I had to make it happen.
        And yes I voted Leave.

      • frpip says:

        I have no idea what you’re talking about here Rob. I can see your emotion but not your point.

      • Anonymous says:

        We had a chance to change to system to Proportional Representation, where everybody’s vote would count, and threw it away.

      • frpip says:

        I voted against that, because that wasn’t pr, it was AV, which in my mind is a more unjust system that FPTP

      • ET says:

        Doesn’t every adult have a voice at every election no matter what class? Everyone has had a voice at every election in recent history, they just have to use their vote. So this isn’t the first time the working class has had a voice to vote for what they believe in. Also its generalising a lot about the groups of people who voted leave or remain. I know plenty of ‘working class’ people who voted remain, and non working class who voted out. (If those terms really mean anything anymore)?

    • Anonymous says:

      My sadness is that the people who voted for the change because they wanted score against the establishment are the very ones who will suffer the most at the hands of the cuts. Remainers aren’t afraid of change, we are simply trying to make sure the laws, the rights and the benefits stay that way, rather than now potentially being in the hands of someone like Boris Johnson with no accountability.

      • geof says:

        The problem with your reply is that the E U will not alter any of there rules …we have to obey them like it or not. No choice

      • West London Lady says:

        If someone, BJ or some else, is making our Laws, why do you say they’re unaccountable? Surely we can vote em out if we’re not happy?

      • Caz says:

        You know that we agreed with the EU on 98% of decisions? In fact, he UK only disagreed with the EU 57 times in the last 17 years…

      • p4newstreet says:

        Geof, I’m just curious. Can you please provide an example of an EU rule that we didn’t vote on that has a direct negative impact on you personally and why? This isn’t a dig but I keep seeing people saying the EU rules are bad and affecting us but I don’t see anyone saying what rules and why. Just one example would really help.

    • Josh says:

      I can see why you’d want a change, I do too. I understand you wanting a revolt and agree that the working classes, like so many other segments of society, are just not listened to.
      How does revolting by leaving the EU solve any of that though? Why was it the EU’s fault and not that of our own political system? The reason vast swathes of the UK are not listened to is because they do not engage with an, admittedly broken, system. Parties pander to those they know will vote. Principally the older generations. Scotland got itself organised, stood up and got itself heard in the last election. In an appropriate and measured way that didn’t lead them down a one way street.
      Being a member of the EU gave us so many benefits, and its funding pulled so many poor areas of the country out of the mire. Areas where the working classes live, work and try their best to exist.
      I can see where you are coming from but don’t share your opinion or agree with your approach. I think your attitude is shared by many. Those people have reached out for something to make a change, without fully considering the message it sends to the world or opportunities their actions have cut off.

      • Julia says:

        What you on about northern towns and cities are completely swamped with any immigrants that London doesn’t want….The NHS is being gradually dismantled because of a huge and sudden rise in population….This is a direct resut of EU membership and it was only going to get worse

      • Julie says:

        I totally agree with your post. I vote because I feel I owe it to the women who fought for it. However, despite reading the election manifestos I find it pretty near impossible to actively want to vote for any of the UK political parties. I sign loads of online petitions in the hope it will do some good. I occasionally go on protest marches. I voted remain because I think it is better to work with our European neighbours to try and improve our world and we have more in common than not. I, like many others, would like lots of things to change, but does my vote actually have any impact on anything……..

    • Anonymous says:

      Amen.

      • Julia what you say is not true. London has far more immigrants than any other part of the country, taking more than a third of all immigrants in 2015, and most of the places that had the biggest leave vote have lower numbers of immigrants than those who voted to remain, Castle Point in Essex voted by 72% to leave yet only had 81 immigrants in 2015. So many leave voters cited immigration as their main concern and yet Brexit have made no promises in regards to making any changes. The NHS is being dismantled because the Tories want to privatise it in order to make money from it, nothing to do with the EU membership or the rise in population. The Tories have sold off hospitals in London and sold the land to private developers for luxury flats making the housing crisis worse than ever, pricing more and more working people out of the capital. The success of the leave campaign has now given all the power to the tory party and they will have free reign to continue pulling this country to pieces. The working classes have been lied to throughout the whole Brexit campaign and things will only get worse.

    • Benson says:

      Absolute nonsense. The working class has been taken advantage of, and just signed away its future.

      Well done!

      • frpip says:

        That’s yet to be seen.

      • Mark Deacon says:

        There is an excellent article by Varoufakis in the Guardian today about Brexit. He was a Remainer but he believes it is just about possible to reform the EU. Nevertheless, he predicts like many top economists, that the Eurozone is heading for inevitable collapse which in turn will lead to EU collapse. Brexit will not protect us fully from this because we are so intertwined with Europe economically. At the same time the working class has been completely forgotten by Europe and while you might complain about successive British governments forgetting about them, it’s far worse throughout the rest of Europe which suggests it is more of a European thing than UK-specific. The one way out of this is making ourselves less dependent upon Europe and making our own trade agreements with other nations. Already South Korea is asking for this and I assume India will follow – it has no trade agreement with the EU. So there is hope that way. Meanwhile, the UK will end up with an agreement with the EU and it will include some freedom of movement. But there will be more management than there is right now. Again, both of those are the most _likely_ outcome. So contrary to criticisms of isolationism, I do believe that Brexit will lead to a more outward looking Britain. Given these events, the fact that Scotland’s Parliament is no longer an SNP majority, that Nicola Sturgeon knows that a second referendum is the final chance, it may well be that when people have cooled down, that the ‘inevitable’ split of the EU turns out not to be that after all. I think there’s a huge amount of conjecture and emotion at the moment that is getting people worked up and worrying entirely unnecessarily. For those of you arguing for PR, we had a referendum on that just a few years ago and had we gone for proportional representation, the Conservatives would have had a bigger majority at the last election than 1st past the post. The Scottish system of PR is similar to the European system and the vote this week showed a rejection of that because it underlined that the people don’t feel represented. And yes, we should hold politicians feet the fire at all times.

      • Ann Evanson says:

        Utter rubbish, let the future speak, unless of course you are privileged with a crystal ball.

    • Maya Martinez says:

      it’s consider, with and ‘s’

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said Matt.

    • Mark Brown says:

      I understand everything that you’ve said but you haven’t actually mentioned anything you voted ‘for’, jut what you voted ‘against’. Voting. for Brexit means an unelected prime minister, probably Boris Johnson or Michael Gove, the prospect of UKIP taking Labour strongholds, a new EU deal which will mean a continuation of the immigration policy that so many people voted against, and a recession. So if you think all of this will make your life better then great, well done, because this is what’s happening now, as we speak.

    • heidibreuer says:

      to bad you swallowed the kool-aid your NHS is in trouble but not because the EU but because of costs in medicine have a way of going up the EU has nothing what so ever to do with your health care and oh the little you did get towards your health care is now gone–immigration is a thing all countries decide for themselves period so another lie was shoved down your throat –you took away your young people right to move freely in the EU and to get jobs and go to schools else where they have a right to be very angry with you –hopefully Scotland and N Ireland will now leave the UK and make its future with Europe

    • APL says:

      Matt: “Now we are being called racist and xenophobic but this is just so untrue for the masses.. we just need change .”

      Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

      If you were sceptical of the supposed benefits of the EU during the last 43 years, you have always been called a ‘racist’ – an insult illustrating as it does the profound ignorance of some people, xenophobic – The British choose to spend most of their holidays outside the UK so just plain false.

      Don’t get all apologetic now. We won this vote fairly and squarely. We won it despite the dirty tricks – probably worth a 5% swing to Remain, the lies about War, Pestilence and Armageddon, probably worth another 2 or 3 % swing away from Brexit. Without the Remain deceit, we’d quite possibly have a 58% result and the Remains would have just managed the mid thirties.

      We have been quite patient over the last 43 years, but now its our turn to have a say in the running of our own country.

      • Pj says:

        Mid 30s??? Last time I checked 100 minus 58 would be 42?!?

      • APL says:

        frip: “What we need you to do now.”

        And, while I’m at it. We’ve had 43 years taking instructions, being lectured, told how stupid, we are because we didn’t want to toe your EU line.

        We don’t need to take instructions from you.

        This was a democratic vote, we won, now you fall in line!

      • frpip says:

        Fall in line? I’m afraid you’re confusing our democracy with a dictatorship.

      • Susan Horswell says:

        The remain campaign played a dirty game and now it’s come back to bite them on the bum. I have never come across so many lies and so much scaremongering to get us to voting to remain. The result has shown that the ordinary people of this country have had enough of the outdated, bureaucratic old machine of tbe EU. I am looking forward to a future outside the EU. The remainers need to stop whinging, accept the democratic process and have a little faith in this great country.

      • APL says:

        frpip: “I’m afraid you’re confusing our democracy with a dictatorship.”

        No, you are. We’ve had the democratic result. Now stop ‘twattering’ about how those stupid BREXITERS couldn’t possibly understand the arguments, couldn’t comprehend the nuances of these matters, and abide the result.

      • frpip says:

        I havent’ said or implied any of that. I don’t know whose comments or blog you’re reading, but you don’t get those ideas from me.

    • ceriffwrdd says:

      Problem is, you were lied to. The leave vote has meant that all the bad things won’t improve (they lied and said they would but have since said “oh it was a mistake” and “we never promised to reduce immigration” ) and all the good things will now disappear. Workers Rights, Environmental protection, Human rights.. EU funding to poor areas.. a disaster fund pool (millions used to rebuild the centre of Manchester when it was blown up) is now not ours to take from.
      Basically, our safety net is gone. Some saw it as an enclosure, yes.. but it wasn’t, it was a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our society and now it’s in the hands of the most right wing non elected government in the whole history of UK politics.

      “I warn you that you will have pain–when healing and relief depend upon payment.

      I warn you that you will have ignorance–when talents are untended and wits are wasted, when learning is a privilege and not a right.

      I warn you that you will have poverty–when pensions slip and benefits are whittled away by a government that won’t pay in an economy that can’t pay.

      I warn you that you will be cold–when fuel charges are used as a tax system that the rich don’t notice and the poor can’t afford.

      I warn you that you must not expect work–when many cannot spend, more will not be able to earn. When they don’t earn, they don’t spend. When they don’t spend, work dies.

      I warn you not to go into the streets alone after dark or into the streets in large crowds of protest in the light.

      I warn you that you will be quiet–when the curfew of fear and the gibbet of unemployment make you obedient.

      I warn you that you will have defence of a sort–with a risk and at a price that passes all understanding.

      I warn you that you will be home-bound–when fares and transport bills kill leisure and lock you up.

      I warn you that you will borrow less–when credit, loans, mortgages and easy payments are refused to people on your melting income.”

      A speech that was never truer than it is today.

      • John says:

        What a load of rubbish I work in Europe and you need to tell the young people in their countries that there are loads of jobs for them because there ain’t so what chance do British youngsters have of getting a job in Europe. Unless you have a skill that that country needs you have no chance and that will be the same after we have left the EU. So stop talking rubbish

    • Biggerthanme says:

      The unfortunate thing that was never pointed out by DC or anyone else is that Brussels has no say over the NHS, education, social care. Security is also a UK issue with some co-operation between EU states (which we would be mad to walk away from if we want to deal with international terrorism). Sadly neither camp, nor the media explained what the EU does and how it operates. So many leavers took their domestic grievances out on an institution they didn’t understand.

    • Peter says:

      Terrific post Matt, I couldn’t have put it better myself.

    • Susan Horswell says:

      Well said Matt, I share your sentiments exactly.

    • Ann Evanson says:

      An excellent summary, thank you for sharing

    • Tim says:

      I could not agree more, as I have stated many times to others, if DC came back and had solid pledges of the change that will happen that he promised he was going over to make the deals with, but then came back with he supports us being in the EU…
      That is one of my main reasons for voting out, and yes I will keep my voice heard on these issues as does the rest of the country needs to, it is now time for the country to bond together and get the governing body to work for us.

    • The EU OUT campaign wasn’t a working class revolt, though it may have ‘felt’ like one to you. I know what a real working class revolt looks like… The 1984 Miners strike, the Poll Tax riots, the campaign against the Housing Bill and the Bedroom Tax also Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership campaign etc. A campaign run by a bunch of hard right Tory nationalists do not have your interests at heart, trust me, I’m old enough to know. The article say’s “hold them to account”, I hope you and the millions of “Brexiters” do just that when you discover your unfortunate mistake, sooner rather than later. In solidarity.

  50. Grace knight says:

    Dear Remainer

    I am an old hated brexiteer. I would like to know why you have not said ‘ if you voted leave because you were concerned about the lack of democracy, transparency and accountability.’ please keep on being active and voting for democracy, transparency and accountability because I have done just that for most of my life. I will continue to do just that fir the rest of my life with every breath in my body no matter his hated I become. That meant I had to call it on the democratically flawed EU.

    • frpip says:

      You are not hated – and please, pleaase don’t self-identify as a hated minority. The most damage done in society is by powerful people who think they are powerless and lash out. You won. All I’m asking is that you keep those who made promises to you to their word. We will be on the same side as that – if that’s what you’ve done all your life, that’s great. Me too. Let’s do it together.

      • Lorraine says:

        Isn’t that what we have just done with the present government, that did not deliver on its promises?

      • frpip says:

        Not sure who you’re addresssing this to? I hope the referendum wasn’t a vote on the current government, because the result is not a criticism of the government, but an ending of the Union.

      • APL says:

        frpip: “and please, pleaase don’t self-identify as a hated minority. ”
        One thing I think you can take away from the result of the EU Referendum is that ‘Brexiteers’ are not a minority.

      • frpip says:

        my point exactly.

      • APL says:

        frip: “my point exactly. ”

        And my point which you may have missed, we don’t care if you hate us.

        Because those of us who have been opposed to the EEC/EU for the last 20 – 40 years have had enough experience of being reviled and ridiculed, those tactics no longer work. You’re all going to have to come up with some arguments for a change.

      • frpip says:

        I don’t hate you, but if you prefer to think I do, that’s entirely your perogative.

    • Stuart says:

      I’m not a hater of Brexiteers, It’s disappointing we voted out but we have to accept that and work together. However, on the democracy side of things when it comes to our leaders, well I think we sometimes have too rosy a view of our own processes. When only 36% people voted for the Government that got in and where we have an un-elected second chamber I think we need to take our democracy with a slight pinch of salt 🙂

      • Grace knight says:

        But we have the opportunity to vote out the House of Lords if we want to. It needs the political will. The democratic mechanism is there. It can be invoked every four years but it is not in the
        EU. The EU has a powerful control mechanism. They are invoking them right now.

      • RobM says:

        Perversely that was one of my reasons for voting remain, I don’t buy into the idea that Westminster represents us a whole lot better then the EU system. In our country probably only 10% of the population carries any sway at a GE (undecideds in marginal consituencies) so my vote and the vast majority of others is meaningless. Those elected take up a perceived “mandate” and then go and do what they want.

        From the reaction so far I hope this actually creates a watershed moment in UK politics more than it does in Europe. I don’t think that’s what Brexit voters were actually voting for, IMO their perception of what power they did/didn’t have was way off. I said all along we shouldn’t be having a referendum on Europe, more one on a new electoral system in the UK. As it transpires I might just get what I wanted after all.

      • Harry says:

        Maybe we should adopt the Australian system that requires everyone to vote. I am sure a lot of our governments have been voted in by a minority of the electorate. Then there can be no complaint about the ruling party being undemocratic.

      • frpip says:

        My preferred single change, would be that the ballot we vote on had no party affiliations on the paper, or in the hall – you have to vote for a person, not a party. If you don’t even know the name of the person you are voting for, you shouldn’t vote for them. It would humanise the system a little, if nothing else, and help reduce the confrontational nature of politics.

    • Jonty says:

      Hear! Hear!

      • Paul says:

        Typo there – we can vote out the House of Commons not the Housepf Lords. I hope that the focus on democratic accountability focuses on the EU will now target the House of Lords, and even the Monarchy (unelected, obviously)

    • Nick says:

      Well thank you both who replied to this, a breath of fresh air, I too voted leave, for the very reason of the EU being undemocratic. NO other issue really got a look in from my point of view.
      To the second person, you are rght, our democracy is slightly skewed, but it is never the less an opportunity to vote. I would rather leave as is, as regards the House of Lords again yes slightly skewed, but I think I’m right in saying most are now nominated, people who have done well and proven record of sound judgement. The upper house do not make any law , but hold the government to task, wisdom does come with age, for the most part, please let’s not have two elected houses, it’s a waste of time. It’s not perfect,but it has served this country by and large well for nearly a 1000 years, give or take.

    • Maurice Haynes says:

      Well said.

  51. Penny Highmoor says:

    Well said!!I only wish people that didnt really understand had asked more questions before just going ahead with voting leave because they wanted a change from our current situation.In my opinion Jeremy Corbyn is a man that can do this so lets back him in the next election and see that change ,have the working class voices listened to!After all ,we are the ones who keep this country running😊

    • Leonard Hall says:

      Do you think that Scotland will stay as part of the U.K. or do you think (as I do) that they’ll have another independence vote and end up leaving the U.K.
      If Scotland breaks away, we’ll not see a Labour government for years, so forget Jeremy Corbyn or any other Labour leader.

      • frpip says:

        There will certainly be another INdy vote, I think. Last time I voted for Better Together. Whether I do again depends on (a) whether Sturgeon can do a decent deal with the EU for Scotland. (b) what sort of deal Scotland might get with the rest of the UK. (c) whether anyone promises me a silver bullet to making everything better. Whichever side does that, I’ll vote against. I’m tried of lies.

  52. John Greene says:

    the £350 million lie has already been retracted,
    the promise to stop immigration also.
    These are FACTS, look them up, its not difficult
    The financial situation will worsen, it is bound to because of the uncertainty. that’s how it works
    You have lashed out in anger but at the wrong target

    • Jon Chaplin says:

      Except the £350 million “lie” was never made. People are getting mad about something that was not, indeed COULD not, be legally promised as the leave campaign are not the incumbent government. Whilst the wording on the bus is ambiguous, are people really that naïve to imagine it would all be spent on the NHS when a portion would be needed to replace the farming and manufacturing rebates? It says “let’s fund our NHS”. It doesn’t say by how much however. Whilst I am not happy at the result, I am more disturbed by the vitriol aimed at people who voted out and voiced their opinion, sometimes for the first time, based on the facts they have seen/been given. That’s lashing out at the wrong target.

      • Anonymous says:

        I didn’t believe for one minute that 350 mill would be spent on the NHS. whether we stayed in the EU or came out the plan is still to sell off the NHS.

      • Anonymous says:

        I think people voted out for a number of reasons, but it cant have been “based on the facts they have seen/been given” as hardly any of the propaganda was actually factual. The EU has been said so many times that it is undemocratic. This was a big plank in the Brexit campaign- but we vote in our MEPs – you can email them, ask them questions and vote them out. It is true that it is large unwieldy bureaucracy beyond them – but then it is trying to work with 27 different countries and get agreement between those countries about rules that we all needed to agree to and for our benefit – the famous “red tape”. eg not allowing the import of meat from the US that is laced with growth hormones- that’s about food safety; not allowing lorry drivers to drive beyond a maximum number of hours before they have a break – that’s about road safety; not allowing sewage to be pumped into the sea off our beaches. Now we have mostly clean beaches where people can swim without the risk of catching some disease. Are those really bad things? Nobody, but nobody did a positive campaign about all the good things that being a member of the EU brought us and it is the Exiters that have said there will be a bonfire of these regulations.

        Lots of people have had a very rough deal over the last few years, which has seen a cruel austerity budget inflicted by our own government – this is not the fault of the EU and the economic problems could have been handled very differently. In fact EU money has been poured into many areas in the country that saw massive deprivation as a result of the collapse of industries such as mining. For example for regeneration of city centres, harbour developments, providing jobs . In some areas like Cornwall the local economy is dependent on EU support. Ironic that they voted massively to Leave- the power of propaganda.
        Too many immigrants ? Our own governments policies have led to a shortage of skills that this country needs. The government could have worked with industry and put funds into proper training so that we develop the skills that we need already in this country rather than having to import the skills via immigration that has got so many people upset. .

        I am very saddened by the success of the vote to leave the EU – for all the young people who will now have their opportunities to study, travel, work in Europe curtailed. For all the British people already living in Europe, working people and pensioners, who now face an uncertain future, as well as immigrants to the UK from Europe who love the UK and living and working here and contributed so much.
        “Take control ” I want my country back” – very emotive, persuasive catch phrases. We will have less control with our own Government unrestrained by the EU regulations that have done so much to protect us, and the environment etc. And we have in one day lost the country that I loved.- Inclusive, outward looking, friendly, compassionate, diverse and full of opportunities. a sad, sad day indeed.

      • AB says:

        My thoughts exactly. I might not have a degree so deemed to bea bit thick (as some have said) but did not once think that the total on the side of a bus would actually be spent on the NHS. Let’s all now work together. That’s what I think. 😊

    • Leonard Hall says:

      The pound went down and gold shot up. The pound is already showing signs of recovering. If you look at shares on the stock market, almost everyone of them will drop on any sign of bad news but they almost always bounce back. There are so many arguments for and against so things will change. Change isn’t always bad, it’s just change.

    • Anonymous says:

      On the subject of facts, the £350 million lie was actually a £100 million lie. In many ways I actually feel sorry for Nigel Farage as it was, I believe, Michael Gove who made the promise but everyone is criticising Farage for saying the pledge was a mistake. Most people thought it was a mistake and a lie as soon as they heard it.

      • frpip says:

        My understanding that our net contribution was £161m per week – which was approximately what Denmark paid in order to get access to the single market. Bearing in mind they are about hte size of Scotland, I always thought that was a pretty goood deal.

  53. Your typical middle class illiberal view that the working class are all uneducated bigots is all kinds of wrong. I would have thought this was written by another of the cry-bullied 18 year olds currently littering social media with their pain if I hadn’t seen your photo.

  54. Tony says:

    What happens if they have lied and we vote them out. We vote as you say people in that tell us complicated truths rather than simple lies and the complicated truths truths turn out to complicated live that try and baffle people.

    Sour grapes my friend. Embrace the future and be part of something great.

    • frpip says:

      I have enough faith in the electorate that we can tell, in time, when people are telling us the truth. If people tell us complicated lies, they will be found out too. But I don’t believe politicians want to tell lies, I think they want to tell us the truth – but fear not being elected by doing it.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Politicians lie, it’s what they do. If you or anyone else didn’t realise this then you are sadly misguided. Mr Cameron himself said during the campaign that he would enact article 50 ASAP, and would lead the country regardless of the result. Within hours of the result he told us that he would be stepping down and not activating article 50. People engaged in this process because they had that rare chance to make every vote account. Sadly when the next election comes round, our old ineffective voting system will return many of those voted here back to the margins. When people who live in safe seats and have no influence on election results are faced with a new way of exercising their democratic rights, they’re going to take it. So I think rather than licking your wounds you need to focus on the underlying flaws in our democracy and look to the future. This is, like it or not, how our system works.

    • frpip says:

      There’s a lot of truth in this – but I thikn as you said, it’s in the way our democracy works, not in the politicians themselves. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to lick wounds for a short while – they are deep – but we have a possibility of making things better, working together.

    • Steve says:

      We can’t enact Article 50 until we have an exit deal that indefinitely protects our individual, economic and political interests. I have been an EU member all my working life, and paid my share of the UK contributions, and because of that, EU owes me something back. The EU needs to respect the fact that 48% of those who voted wanted to remain, and around 20% were not entitled to any say whatsoever.

  56. Dragan S says:

    Your assumption that the average Brexiteer was really listening to the arguments and then made decision was simply wrong. Or was it sarcasm😉. They don’t listen to anybody, they KNOW the stuff.

    • frpip says:

      I don’t think that’s fair – or true. Immigration is a huge issue, and not a racist or xenophobic one, and peopel voted to try and make their lives better. I thikn they made the wrong choice, but I don’t thikn they made it for the wrong reasons.

      • Hi Jon. Sorry but I can’t agree that the £350 million lie was never made. Right up to the last couple of days every Leave campaigner interviewed on TV made the assertion that “we send £350 a week to the EU”. This was a lie. I think it is highly unlikely that even the true figure we send will be spent on the NHS or on subsidies to farmers, regional development, fisheries etc. It is far more likely to be used to reduce our deficit. I also disagree that there has been a lot of “vitriol aimed at leave voters”. I have been accused of this but have never made personal attacks on anyone. I have pointed out what I consider to have been the facts and the lies, generally made by unnamed people or made-up organisations. Unfortunately people I know have shared these posts and then taken offence when I have voiced my opinion about the claims. All the best. Bob

      • HI. I think you are being a bit too generous. I didn’t hear anyone arguing that we should be stopping Americans, Australians etc etc from coming here. Most people were referring to “Polish Builders”, “Lithuanian care workers” etc. The other issue was the “sovereignty”, “take back control”, “democracy” issue. They chose to believe that the EU Commission makes all of our laws, despite it being pointed out on many occasions that it is the EU Parliament, i.e. MPs voted in by all peoples in the EU countries, which passes laws, and even then the vast majority of laws pertaining to the UK are made in Westminster. By the way, well done for spending so much time arguing your point of view.

  57. SteveB says:

    Well written and, I think, a balanced way of responding to the situation. I too would like the leaver politicians to hold to their promises. We live in interesting times.

  58. Madeleine says:

    Feeling relieved that we are distancing ourselves from that ungodly setup. The EU, I mean, not the continent of Europe, we are still part of that and after all I do have a French name!
    Now the hard work begins, we need to pray that our leaders will lead us in a Godly way that brings righteousness, peace and joy to the UK, so that we can be a blessing to all of the rest of the world. I am believing that our Commonwealth links will strengthen and flourish. In the 19th century we built an Empire, now let us work on building a Kingdom – the Kingdom of God, with the Lord Jesus Christ seated on the throne. Exciting, scary times ahead!

    • Anonymous says:

      The kingdom of God???

    • Lon says:

      I believe that using prayer is no where near as impactive as using the voting booth.
      Also remember we didn’t ‘build’ an empire, we raped and pillaged for it.

    • Jude51 says:

      We built an Empire destroying other people’s cultures and raping their resources in order to further our own comforts. And pretended that we were taking a god to them to justify it. Why would our commonwealth links flourish? You mean that now we need them again, they’ll welcome us with open arms.

    • Jane Steele says:

      I believe in God, but I also respect others who have a different faith and may approach divinity from another path. Whilst the principles of faith (no matter what the faith), are generally a good code for living, it is hardly appropriate to ram Christian beliefs’ down everyones throat. Surely we need a world where we can all live together and practice what ever faith we chose?

  59. jedicoe says:

    Well said. Everything has changed and Nothing has changed.

  60. nic says:

    Thank you so much! As a german citizen I´m pretty scared this referendum could happen anywhere in europe in the near future and I´m sure the outcome would be very much the same. So this statement should be a blueprint widely spread, for everyone to read before voting the “in or out”-option. I shared this one and hope it´ll get attention!!!
    Kind regards, nic

    • Ian says:

      You say your pretty scared,,, what of democracy ,,, I do think more countries would vote to leave if given the chance,

  61. Kim weir says:

    They all lie in reality, we are controlled by higher powers and the governments we elect always look like liars due to this, disgusting really!!

    • frpip says:

      Yes, but we can do somethign about it. I’d hate to just sit in disgust and do nothing. Despair is a deceptively comforting place to be.

  62. Angie says:

    Has anyone here actually informed themselves of these facts?
    Important and relevant for moving forward …

    Ride the storm guys … it will be worth it in the long run.
    There are people in the world who die fighting for their freedom. We may have to suffer a relatively uncomfortable period in the short-medium term, but there is NOTHING more important than our freedom to choose who makes our laws. Democracy may not be perfect, but it’s the best we’ve got at the moment.

    • frpip says:

      Democracy will never be perfect. But we can make it better.

    • Brendan Arnold says:

      This is biased view of what is essentially a democratic system. This page describes what the EU is (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-law-and-the-balance-of-competences-a-short-guide-and-glossary#more-like-this) and how it is democratically accountable.

      He is right that there is a branch of law makers in the European Commission that are not directly elected by people, but they are put forward by our own governments who we elect in. The Commission represents more long term thinking in Europe (since MEPs and prime ministers change every few years), much like our own House of Lords does in the UK – the difference is that positions are not for life and can be revoked by the current government of state. Moreover the Comission is overseen by the Parliament which we do have direct democratic control over.

      Frankly it is a pretty well thought out system, which although may be a little complex given how it has evolved over time, does offer a lot of democratic accountability.

  63. Michael Noddings says:

    One thing I admire is your willingness to accept the decision and want to move on together because that is exactly what the country needs to show to the rest of the world how great, Great Britain is. However your list of comments amuse me….political parties on both sides before elections make ” promises ” if they are elected. A lot of those promises ARE implemented and a lot of those promises are not as easy to implement and take time. One thing you cannot deny though is YES over time if things do not change then we WILL vote them out. Tell me….had we have stayed part of the EU and things get much worse and the lies from the Remain camp come to bear who will the British public remove to attempt change? Oh we cant, because the EU is not a democracy and we would have to live with it. End of discussion.

    • Sam says:

      If we voted to Remain and nothing changed over time and it was shown that those politicians lied then we could have had a second referrendum (like Scotland will have soon). The difference is the second one would have much more unanimous support for the Leave campaign rather than the slim advantage they got.

  64. Val Wineyard says:

    It’s my opinion that the politicians concerned were using the issue to score points off each other with no thought of the future of the people at all. Now it has horribly back-fired but the problem is, the people will suffer, not them.

  65. Marie O'Regan says:

    I think what you have written is measured and succinct, we should all now hold our democratically elected members of parliament and councils to account. However there was one point you made about ‘the underclass’, throughout the UK there are too many neglected cities, towns and villages, this neglect started in the late 1970’s with the decline of manufacturing and industry. There are too many families and communities that were effectively discarded and now demonised as worthless, uneducated, the term Chav used to describe and ridicule a section of people that have been selfishly sidelined by the rest of society.

    Most of the wealth is concentrated in London and the surrounding counties, the trickle down effect of this thriving economy is too little for the rest of the country. So some of those neglected people are savvy enough to know that we import people to do jobs that they could easily do, but they also know that the cry of ‘the locals won’t do this work’ a lazy justification for ignoring the poverty and difficult lives of so many people. The opportunity or capability of further and higher education is not for everyone, there has to be an investment into the development of young people’s skill sets in the form of properly trained and paid apprenticeships.

    I remember the chaos of the late 1970′ I was 20, a product of a secondary education, the daughter of immigrants, life was tough. I went on to gain qualifications, I had a career in teaching, I broke the mould of what my life was meant to be. Do not demonise a section of this majority vote to leave because they believe they too can break that mould. I voted remain but I respect the democratic process and look forward to seeing how we will move forward with our economy and that will be with the help of immigrants.

  66. Patrick Selden says:

    Hi, frpip.

    I did listen to the people who were telling me uncomfortable, complicated truths as opposed to easy, simple lies, which is why, after much soul-searching and questioning of my assumptions, I voted Leave in the referendum on Thursday.

    Thank you, nonetheless, for your reasonable response to the result, even though it wasn’t what you wanted.

    Peace.

  67. I am saddened that the referendum has turned one against another. When all is said and done the majority has spoken. It is sad that those who have a vote didn’t use it. As a woman I know that women had to suffer so much in the past to give me the opportunity to vote therefore I will and must use that privelige.

  68. Anonymous says:

    This was a pyrrhic victory for democracy and the country. the vote was so close it cannot be considered a victory, merely an outcome.We all have to deal with that result. Scotland did not vote ‘overwhelmingly’ to stay but there is a clear majority. Both sides are extremely guilty of unfettered rhetoric. I voted Stay for exactly the same reasons as friends and family voted leave. This country has always welcomed (mostly!) immigrants. We are a nation of immigrants and always have been it is the reason behind our success and will continue to be. My wife is Spanish, I am English, we live in Scotland, my mother is Scottish and lives in England. It is not them and us. It is just us. only us. It’s all there ever was and all there ever will be. If you feel it is someone else’s fault, whatever it is, do something about it. Life isn’t fair but we fight. That’s our way, it’s always been our way. It’s one of the things that attracts people to Britain, our mentality. Things happen and we have a responsibility to ourselves and everyone else to do what we need to do. Politics is just a vehicle to take us where we need to go. Stop treating it like anything other than a tool, a means to an end. It is not a religion, blues and reds, left and right,, right and wrong…Enough! What we want is a better life for ourselves and those around us. I don’t care which side you were on, there was truth and reason behind both. 17.5 million voted leave, 17 million voted remain. Move on, pull hard and pull together…we can throw stones or use them to build, build, build.
    Awesome post to get the discussion going.

  69. Ian Travis says:

    Precisely. If they lie to you, hold them to account.

  70. Easee says:

    Also don’t forget they said that all the money going from the EU to Wales / the Northeast / Cornwall and Northern Ireland would be replaced with money from Westminster. Suspect that will end up being shown to be a lie too.

  71. Anonymous says:

    How utterly patronising!

  72. Anonymous says:

    I’m ‘old’ yes I think 76 is old. I voted remain for my grandchildren and all our young people whose futures are now darkened. I voted remain because I yearn for peace and because of the EU for the first time in our history the war between member States is unthinkable. I voted remain because I look at the community I live in and am grateful for how much E U money has transformed it and I am grateful. I voted remain because I love my country and believed being part of Europe makes us better. I voted remain and today i’m frightened

    • Carol says:

      Hello 76-year old anonymous. Talk to your grandchildren and tell them how you voted, it may comfort them. The young have much energy; take comfort from the high proportion of them who voted to remain and that they will take that energy and commitment to connection and inclusivity forward into the future. That bodes well.

      From 55 year old anonymous.

  73. Anonymous says:

    Many thanks for telling me what to do , very useful as I had my brain removed by Brussels

  74. Anonymous says:

    But who do we vote out? The Tories, who largely were remain, or the Labour party,who were largely remain? or the LibDems (who?). It was a coalition of people, including UKIP who only ever had 1 parliamentary majority seat, who are behind this fiasco. The very problem is we *can’t* vote anyone out, apart from an individual person by person basis.

  75. Brad says:

    A complex situation has been put in the hands of unqualified people to decide on. Since they’re unqualified, they were influenced almost entirely by the media, thus, the media (and its money) decided whether we stay in the EU or not.

    The referendum wasn’t democracy. It was a marketing competition.

  76. Anonymous says:

    I voted out and as I keep a journal, I have just written an entry detailing all the reasons why. It is seven A4 pages long, so I will spare you the details, but I hope you will believe it was a considered decision, having observed the EU over a period of over 40 years and its prevailing trends. I’m not from a working class background but I am definitely part of the working class right now and many of those who have working class origins seem remote from life at the sharp end presently. (I don’t include you in that, of course, because I don’t happen to know anything about you, other than reading your well-considered post).
    I hope you will feel assured that having committed my thoughts to paper, I shall be reading these pages in future to progress-check those expectations and instead of merely holding politicians to account, I am thinking of joining a political party to try to ensure the change that I want to happen will happen.

    • frpip says:

      I’m glad. I never thoguht that a vote against mine was a thoughtless vote. I just thought that the Brexit politicians were making promises that they couldn’t keep. If you can help make them keep their promises, then I’ll be more than happy. And will do whatever I can to help you on the way.

  77. Pingback: Dear Brexiteer. What we need you to do now. – The Disobedient Author

  78. Trev Smith says:

    The only thing missing from this article is that the same potential deregulation which could result in worse workers rights could also hammer the environment. Also, everything combined will have the net result of widening wealth disparity. Without Europe to support us and regulate us, if we don’t get forced to conform to their laws anyway which seems likely, the influence of lobbyists is increased hugely. We will become a small image of the USA, which if you follow American politics, you will already have seen with the tactics and the results (so many voting against they’re own interests because of misinformation, scapegoating and outright lies coupled with an “ignore the experts, what do they know?” anti-intellectual stance). None of this was helped by the remain campaign also using some of these tactics at times.

  79. Chris says:

    I voted remain. I am disappointed of course. I am worried that analysis is putting the split of opinion down to class. It’s too simplistic and we don’t need to carve up the country with more ‘us and them’ chat. There were plenty of real considerations on both sides of the debate but there were (I think somewhat successful attempts on both sides) to manipulated us all with lies and fear. It was a very unhealthy debate that patronised everyone and again showed the power of the media. It is not the outcome of the referendum that terrifies me. It is how easy it is to pitch people against their friends, neighbours, family in the interest of the political elite. I have enjoyed this piece and enjoyed reading the measured conversation that it has inspired. Gives me hope.

  80. Tony says:

    “Truth” and “Lies” in politics is a matter of perception. You believe “Remain” told “uncomfortable, complicated truths” in their campaign? Many people would find that laughable (including huge numbers of people who are quite capable of looking at a issue and balancing pros and cons as they relate to them). Many (most?) people would find the idea that Cameron and Osborne have an honest bone in their body laughable.

    I used to live in Sevenoaks, which has just about the most affluent population in the country as well as being a generally well-educated and “cultured” sort of place. They voted to join the revolutionary forces by a comfortable margin. When that happens, you know you’re deep in the doo-doo – and it’s more profound your rather arrogant and ridiculous “simple lies” versus “uncomfortable,complicated truths” picture. That’s the kind of stuff you expect from the unquestioningly tribal, “party machine” sheep politicians we’re all so fed up with.

    “Leave” won by over .1.25 million votes, a result that few would really have expected given the overwhelming “consensus” of mainstream political parties, big business, quasi-government and lobby organisations (many of them not as “independent” as you might think), the govenment, the EU and “the establishment” for continuing with the EU “status quo”. The fact they still lost by a clear (albeit narrow) margin given their vastly superior “firepower” tells you the “status quo” is sufficiently troubling to a majority of people to make “another way” attractive enough to vote for.

    I can see where you’re going in a few year’s time. Your’e unwilling to accept there may be another way, and you’ll come up with some manipulated statistic(s) and use them to try and convice people they were “lied to”. Those on the other side of the argument will come up with some manipulated statistic(s) and use them to try and convince people things are going just fine thank you very much. “Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics” etc. etc. – Business as usual.

    I’m sure there will be plenty of people who will bear an irrational grudge over this for many years to come – Don’t let yourself be one of them.

    • frpip says:

      I don’t think you can see where I’m going, as, with respect, you don’t know me. I’m not by nature cynical, and I don’t have entrenched views. I have great hope for the future – but hope in politics is a well-engaged electorate holding those who have made promises to account. That is what I asked for in this blog post. I was written early in the morning of Friday, when I had been up all night and devastated by the result, so apologies if you felt it was terse, but I’m sure you can cut me a little slack on that one.

  81. Sarah says:

    Is it possible that a proportion of voters voted the way they did based on their own research into what could possibly happen if we remain or leave?! I for one didn’t make my choice based on any promises from any politicians! I am proud to be British but I hate the attacking nature from both sides. The votes have been counted, so lets make the most of it!

  82. Carol says:

    Im kind of lucky that I’ve recently moved jobs so no longer funded by the EU but still affected and sad to know that 70 of my previous colleagues will lose their jobs now. That’s 70 families with less income. I’m sad for what we’ve all lost and what that might mean for the future. I’m apprehensive about what the funding deal will now be for Wales because I can’t see us being much better off! I hope the leave voters turn out to be right and I wonder if you can repost this at election time 🙂

  83. Anonymous says:

    I think we can make up our own minds thank you and do not need your patronising advice! Ps (you still don’t get it)

  84. baekerp46@btinternet.com says:

    When I had my family, I planned when I could afford another mouth to fed. I didn’t have one year after year, as much as I wanted 20 children, I simply could not afford a big family.

    In the same way I’m not against immigration but I believe that we should plan when we can welcome more new comers. This was not an option if we stayed in the EU.

    • frpip says:

      Although Daniel Hannon, Brexit MEP is now saying that will will obviously have to accept free movement of labour with the EU in order to get any trade deal.

  85. Anonymous says:

    My sentiments exactly….thank you

  86. terry says:

    A huge problem is that no-one clearly explained to the UK electorate how Brussels works, leading to complaints about unelected “EU Officials” running the UK. – well that’s the same as saying Whitehall Officials aren’t elected but run the UK (though with devolution it may be more local for you depending on where you live).

    The published “pecking order” has the European Parliament at the top with the “unelected EU Officials” ie the European Commission at no4. The no 2 & no 3 slots are bodies consisting of Member State Government Ministers.
    So Democracy isn’t the issue but transparency – and that’s the fault of politicians, Governments and the media.

    I do think we need a Sanity Check Referendum before the final pull of the plug; I bet few Brexiters realised they were also voting to break up the Union with Scotland and might like the opportunity to reconsider.
    This wasn’t the British rebelling but the English and Welsh rebelling….

  87. MRMRC says:

    It is all very well to say ‘vote them out if you are unhappy with them’ but that is not how elections work. You vote FOR something/one, not against them.
    The issue is to cast your vote. If you want democracy – encourage everyone of voting eligibility to vote. The less than 3/4 turnout of the population for this important issue was pathetic even when compared with a typical general election.
    Although I voted ‘Leave’ I do not see the 52%:48% as a resounding victory. It just shows there are a lot of people who are unhappy about the current status quo.
    I voted ‘Leave’ to, hopefully, start the disintegration of the current EU. The referendum of 1975 was to consider remaining in an economic not a political union. Quite rightly the common sense thing then was to say ‘Yes’.
    The EU has become a tyrannical, self-aggrandising, oligarchical and incompetent organisation that does not allow criticism of itself and has forgotten its primary objective (as the EEC) and, without establishing the precursors for enlarging it’s role (to political and fiscal union), is on a trajectory that only a handful of the ‘political elite’ appear to want .
    I was offered the opportunity to express my opinion in this matter by putting a cross in a box. Is that what you mean by voting them out?

    • frpip says:

      Thank you for this well reasoned post. You’re right, voting them out is a blunt tool – but it’s not the only one. Political activism can be done in many ways. I’ve always written and spoken to MPs whenever possible. Whenever I’ve got to their surgeries, I’ve found myself amongst a very small number of people. We don’t take the chance to share our views with MPs, unless it’s at the click of a mouse. In the months to come, holding our MPs and decision makers to account will be vital, and we need to engage more, both individually and collectively. Not sure how yet, but I feel optimistic we can find ways to do so.

  88. Julia Melinek says:

    Silly unthought through article. Vote who out?? The current government wanted in, not out. So they are not to blame for what happens now. Ditto labour. This was not an election. It was a referendum. It is separate to the elected government. Doh!

  89. This is truly powerful – After the divide that the country is now in, it’s more important than ever that we stick together and work through this. Excellent article, I really hope people pay attention and make meaningful votes in the future.

    • frpip says:

      Thanks Daniel. It’s been quite interesting reading the comments on this one. Some of the one’s I’ve not allowed through are quite… direct!

  90. ROY C says:

    I voted to leave and agree this was a protest because nobody would listen to ordinary peoples concerns. The majority of young people voted to stay and now feel betrayed. However it is the older generation who need to see the doctor more than you do. It is the older generation who need hospital treatment more than you do. It is the older generation who need social care, assisted living arrangements….Need I go on ? We have witnessed these services decline due to over use and council / government cuts. We are told the budget must be met therefore services must be cut. Yet the population grows due to unrestricted migration putting undue pressure on not only health but schools housing prisons police. At the last general election most of the older generation could not bring themselves to vote for UKIP nor could the forgive Labour or Tony Blair and mistrust the Tories. So the referendum was the last gasp protest that all was not right and things needed to change. They did not listen before but my god they are listening now !

    • frpip says:

      With respect, they are not listening now. Because you told them you thought the solution to your problems was the EU and immigration. It wasn’t – it was chronic underfunding, and the complete lack of wealth and power distribution. The young people of today will not be able to retire until 70 or more, they will have no where near the prosperity and wealth in retirement that the older generation currently have. I know you’re frustrated, but to my mind you’ve chosen the silver bullet option – and silver bullets are always snake oil. I hope, I really hope I’m wrong, but we shall see.

  91. Trine says:

    I voted out and am proud to say that. I am not the working class. I am highly educated, not gullible and don’t believe half the things the Leave campaign have preached or promised.

    It also doesn’t mean that I like Farage or Boris Johnson, nor does it mean that I think they are the right people to take this country forward. In fact I hope some of the things they have promised that we will keep, indeed doesn’t happen (example below) However I passionately feel that this country will be better being able to govern by its own rules and stand period without feeling the need to be supported by the rest of Europe!

    As an example, you mention that we should vote the people out if we lose some of the workers right…..well I hope we do!. Many of the people voting to stay are actually the ones who work for the big corporations where, although on paper they follow all the EU rights, they are the worst at over working their staff, expecting the impossible and in many cases ask you to sign an exemption from the EU working hours if you want to keep your job.
    I would be nice if we lost some of the ‘workers rights’ which in effect just makes everything at work much harder to manage. Let’s revert to the days where if someone wasn’t capable of doing their job then they were sacked…not having to go through months and months of paperwork and justifications ending up in the courts for wrongful dismissal…it should be up to that company to decide if you can do your job….or even if you fit in the company or if they like you!!
    Sick pay…is it really right that so many people can abuse a companies generosity and go off sick months on end getting paid for it? I don’t think so.

    OH and can I please point out I am actually a Danish citizen who has lived in England for 25 years. My children are British and I have lived my life supporting this country because I believe in it!

  92. Trevor Davis says:

    Democracy

  93. Frank Gibson says:

    What you say is all good and well but what did we do in the past when we were lied to again and again…..lower immigration, better deals, change from within……etc etc. Tell me, when did Europe last experience people in power stating that an example had to be made so that others don’t try and take the same action….. And this is the Europe that you wish to be part of. Maybe you should consider a name change. …..Mr Bevin might be appropriate.

  94. Anonymous says:

    But when you sat and listened to the argument you sat in a nice chair in a nice house with a nice job other people didn’t so had a different perspective

    • frpip says:

      I think more of the population of this country than to think that people who don’t have nice chairs are incapable of forming logical opinions.

  95. Dave f says:

    Democracy is great right up to the point you don’t get what you want. This was the most democratic vote ever in my lifetime one person one vote. To now accuse people with an opposing viewpoint of being ignorant stupid and unable to digest the facts as they relate to their circumstances is ignorant and arrogant. If the vote had been to remain I would have accepted it without question as this is democracy. Your life experience is different to mine and things affect you in different ways it doesn’t make mine less important than yours and it just so happens more people agreed with me.

    • frpip says:

      I have accused no-one of being stupid or incapable of digesting facts. I have only said that if people voted because of promises made, it is up to all of us to make sure those promises are delivered.

    • West Stand Man says:

      As there is no mention of any dissatisfaction in the original article your comment is simply silly. At worst it suggests you didn’t actually read the article properly? In fact, what it says is that we all, but those who voted to Leave in particular, now have to monitor to ensure that we get what was promised.
      Of course, we know we won’t get large chunks of it so that should trigger a response.

  96. Tony E says:

    The most important thing now is to find a solution for leaving which recognises the closeness of the result.

    Leaving the Single Market now, is probably not that solution. It would be incredibly divisive at a moment when we need economic stability and a degree of social harmony.

    The Adam Smith Institute did some polling on this which can be found on their website, showing that many remain voters were likely to support a staged Brexit,via EEA.

    http://www.adamsmith.org/news/asi-brexit-poll-results-get-widespread-coverage-across-national-media-titles

    I would suggest that they are on the right track with this, as is Roland Smith with his “Liberal Case For Leave” article (also on ASI website).

  97. D says:

    Voting people out we don’t agree with is the idea.

    At least Britain will be governed by British citizens

    Neither of the above is possible in the EU

  98. Mike the Red says:

    Got to go back to the Turkey thing. Fear and loathing about the potential of Turkey joining the EU – but in reality, I doubt if it will happen in my lifetime (I’m 57). But why do I say this? Well, how long has it been since negotiations first started? How far have they come with agreeing to the necessary changes to join the EU? A free press is nonexistant at the moment (journalists being arrested), an independent judiciary is questionable and equal rights? Not really – have you seen the reports of arrests around the attempted gay pride marches? But, in reality, all the existing EU member states have a veto on new members. An earlier contributor mentioned Greece – but how about another member with greater interests in Turkey’s appication? Well, Cyprus, of course! Invaded and partilally occupied by Turkey in 1974, my guess is that Turkey would have to relinquish all territorial claims on Cyprus before being able to join. Meethinks hell will freeze over first!

  99. Cam says:

    Can someone explain the point on workers rights? The only way I see us losing maternity/paternity pay, sick pay, etc like in the paragraph above seems to state will happen is if whichever government we have decided to scrap the systems we have currently. Why would the government not simply keep the things that work when we were in the EU and change others that perhaps didn’t work so well for the better? Maybe copying systems from other countries?

    • frpip says:

      There were some in the Tory Brexit movement saying that they definitely wanted to scrap many of the workers rights. Of course it would be up to individual governments, but that may be the point – they’re not set in stone in a way that the currently are, and they become a party political football.

    • David says:

      Agree this will never happen and was a scare tactic that a lot of remain voters bought into.
      Firstly it would be stupid to revoke workers rights, maternity pay, leave etc. The UK introduced most of them before the EU caught up.
      Secondly the unions who fought for them in the first place would not allow it, there would be national strikes and riots and no government no matter how stupid would willingly want that.

      • Celia says:

        Workers rights have already been steadily eroded over recent years. The unions are now very weak. As we are coming out of EU there is going to have to be lots and lots of rewriting of laws which came previously from Europe. It is an enormous task. It will be done in great haste. It is a perfect time to take people’s rights away We probably won’t notice til it’s too late as there is going to be so much new legislation being drafted. No one knows for sure this will happen but it is highly likely. You can see already the trouble the country is going to be in. There will be austerity now even more than before.

      • Celia, no need to rewrite all our laws, were not going to throw the statute book out the window and start again. But at least now we have the chance to review them and change some to suit our needs rather than the greater Europe.

      • headopener says:

        http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/01/cameron-pledge-scrap-human-rights-act-civil-rights-groups before the election talk of scrapping the human rights act and making a British version, yet they still got in. I would say this is for sure going to happen now. As for if that is a good or bad thing for workers is yet to be seen however…

      • john says:

        Maggie saw to it that the Unions would never have such power again. We will be powerless if such legislation does change.

      • Andrew says:

        But who knows what the needs of the country will be going forward. We are in the unknown, potentially if companies leave cause they want to be in the EU and unemployment rises we, as a country, may need to reduce workers rights just to give companies an incentive to be here and cover the costs of being out of the EU. It may very well not happen, but it may and it may be abhorrent and may need to happen but it is all unknown. Fundamentally we hugely gambled so we can keep laws the same and hopefully improve some, let’s hope and work hard towards it working

    • Anonymous says:

      More money for the corperations

    • Anonymous says:

      My thoughts exactly

    • Reg Davey says:

      Maybe time for a written constitution in the UK (or whatever it becomes)? Set out inalienable rights we believe in as a nation.

      • Anonymous says:

        It would have to be a cross-party writing of it with every single party with an MP in parliament agreeing to it before we, the greater public, give it our agreement.

    • KenR says:

      The UK government actively tried to block a lot of these rights and gain opt outs. Why do you think, that with no external mandate that they are a basic right, they will keep what they see as restrictive legislation?

    • Cat sawyer says:

      Because the government we now have in power are the ones that are scraping benefits that have increased food banks, increased homelessness, brought in bedroom tax. Why woukd they want to keep a system that costs them money and works to benefit us? Does that answer your question? Also all animal rights and environmental acts are from the EU. This will allocate to be re written.

    • Anonymous says:

      Because what is good for workers (a minimum wage, a pension, dismissal rights, regular hours) is not necessarily good for employers. The EU has built some sturdy protections for workers but our Conservative Party, being as it is, full of wealthy elites, tend to try to make things easier for big businesses to maximise profits, and not for workers to be protected and respected, ref: Cameron trying to repeal the European Human Rights Act. Without EU protection Parties have more freedom to screw workers over to the benefit of their employers.

  100. Brian says:

    If things do improve in the near future will you concede and say , thank you for upsetting the apple cart and showing me another way..of course not. The leavers will still be seen as racist xenophobes and the remainers will have a very big chip on their shoulders.

    • frpip says:

      I’m always happy to concede when I’m wrong. I do that a lot. Because I often am. 🙂

    • Rich says:

      Personally I would be happy to concede if things turn out better. I think the problem seems to be generalisations (I think this has been an issue throughout the whole debate), I have seen some horrific mud slinging from both sides throughout the entire process; from remain voters being called morons, leftist elitists and scum to leave voters being branded racists and xenophobes…while I’m sure there is a sliver of truth in there (I have seen some horribly racist comments from a few leave voters across social media) making sweeping generalisations doesn’t help anyone, nor does it advance the debate in any sort of useful manner.

      • frpip says:

        Thank you Rich, my sentiments exactly. Far Right extremists don’t make every Brexiter racist, but it;s easier to tar peopel with that brush than to give reasoned argument – which is sadly what we got a lot of the time.

  101. John says:

    My first ever vote was to to join the Common Market, I voted ‘IN’ . I did not vote for the United States of Europe or to be given Laws from someone I cannot elect or vote against. My main reason for voting ‘Leave’. I love my country, I’m free to vote the way I wish. I’m fed up of all the negatives from the defeated side. We are out so deal with it and do your best for this country.

    • frpip says:

      Well you’ve only had 24 hours of it, so you get fed up easily! It will pass.

      • Anonymous says:

        That is a flippant reply

      • frpip says:

        Yes. I was just suggesting that patience might be a virtue. People have had a shock, and are grieving. Giving them 24 hours recovery time might be the compassionate thing to do.

      • Anonymous says:

        John says he voted to go in the Common Market, (EU) but a pal of mine says. “There was not a vote to go in. ” So when was it that we voted to go in?

      • frpip says:

        We voted in 1974 I think to go into the EU. Not sure, I was about four weeks old then.

    • George says:

      You did not vote to be given laws from someone you cannot elect or vote against? You do realise that government is to a very large degree run by the entirely unelected (and unelectable) civil service?

    • Mike Doyle says:

      Nearly – we voted in June 1975 – I just missed being able to vote. Question was “Should the UK remain in the European Economic Community”. Yes or No answer.
      We were already in and Labour Manifesto of 1974 had promised a referendum.
      It was a much more civilised debate – really.

    • Mike Doyle says:

      What country is that you mean John?
      I am proud to be British but after your and the other 17 plus million vote I will have to deal with just being embarrassed to be English.
      This as the UK I was proud to be a member of has a very limited shelf life.
      No Scotland within two years and either a troubled Northern Ireland with associated cost of every type (because their referendum was agreed or because it was vetoed) or no Northern Ireland.
      So as I am stating a fact rather than a negative – which country was it you loved when you voted that way. If you do not mind me asking?

  102. Sarah says:

    Vote who out? The PM was not in the argument to LEAVE she said STAY.

    Labour MP’s where on the LEAVE side too you know and Labour voters also voted leave.

    Who is it that you refer to?

  103. richard bottoms says:

    There is no one party to vote in or out it was a referndem, we out voters have only ourselfs to blame as we belived different lies to what you lisetened too if it was lies at all.

    • Veronique Mertes says:

      I have a european passport, i have been here for 13years, work, pay tax and both my kids are english. I was not allowed to vote. I dont feel like i was listened to or my opinion of interest. I am sad as i have seen a europe growing up that i cherished and its frustrating because i cant make people see the greatness of some of it. I also am sad as my home country Belgium has suffered a lot from the consequences of english foreign politics which influenced the immigration catastrophy. It feels like many leavers dont know or dont want to see that leaving now is leaving other countries to clean up a mess they helped create..

      • APL says:

        Veronique Mertes: “It feels like many leavers dont know or dont want to see that leaving now is leaving other countries to clean up a mess they helped create..”

        It wasn’t Britain that threw open the borders of Europe to people who have cultural norms that are the antithesis of Western European civilisation. You should have a stern chat with you neighbour Ms Merkel on that score.

      • frpip says:

        Who do you mean? Syrians fleeing death in their own country? If so, I’m afraid your views and mine are totally opposed. It is to our shame that we have not invited more refugees in. We have become a lesser country because of it.

  104. Caroline says:

    A great post, thank you.

    I’m a thirty something who is still reeling from this result and what it means for my generation’s future, as well as concerns over my husband’s job.

    I’m still bemused by those that voted out, although I appreciate that for most of them, their intentions were honourable, albeit misguided. Can I ask what is meant nowadays by the working class; does this also include those who have never worked or paid taxes, yet appear to have come out in force to vote? From my background, it meant we worked hard and made something of ourselves, but now I’m not so sure.

    • I’m a 50 something and I voted out purely on sovereignty. To me, the question was do I want to the country to be a small part of a Superstate or do I want it to be a self governing, self determining sovereign nation. I actually work for a German company in international field service, so you’d probably see me as a turkey voting for Christmas, but that’s important to me. Working in Europe is already a pain for me as I can only work to their working time directive, whereas when I’m out of Europe I can work 12/7, get the job done quickly, make some money and get home. Remainers seem to forget that there’s a whole world outside the EU.

      • Anonymous says:

        So you have clearly enjoyed the fruits of being in the EU but now in the latter part of your career when it does not matter as much to you you want to gamble the future of the young. Wonderful! Thank you!

  105. Anonymous says:

    If I vote out a politician that had told lies over this referendum then all would be out as both sides told lie after lie

  106. Craig mackenzie says:

    You could could have written the same if the remains had won. Yes they lie, they all lie.

    The reason why the leave campaign won is simply.

    People want a change and this was the perfect opportunity.

  107. Your headline is “What we need you to do now’. You are still trying to tell other people what to do and expecting them to do what you want. I suggest you have not yet understood that a majority voted the way they did because of exactly that attitude.

    • frpip says:

      I think you’re reading a little too much into my title. I was hoping that the winners, gracious in victory, might be willing to listen to the pleas of one of the losers, who was writing after a long night of disappointment. Of course, you can do exactly as you choose, but your vote enabled this to happen, so I think it’s only reasonable to ask you to help make sure you weren’t lied to.

      • Yes, I will decide when I’m being lied to – I’ve had plenty of practice recently, listening to Osborne and many others. I’ll also decide when I am being patronised by people who still have no inkling of how patronising they are. You say ‘it’s only reasonable to ask you to help make sure you weren’t lied to.’ You really believe that others are deluded, and your ‘Make sure you weren’t lied to’ is just a weaselly way of saying so while protecting yourself against any accusation of being rude. In that respect, it is hypocrisy. You have a right to your beliefs on the EU but you are not above criticism for the oleaginous and sanctimonious way you engage with others.

  108. Catgirl says:

    One thing struck me here. That we import workers because we don’t train people here.
    Well why not! Surely to stop the underclass and sort out social issues then both training and jobs for British born workers are essential. So it’s time to change what we’ve been doing and try something new. As they say: “If you change nothing, then, nothing will change”.

    • frpip says:

      Absolutely. The pracice of advertising jobs soley in other countries has to stop, as does the practice of importing other people’s nurses and doctors without trainig enough of our own.

    • Celia says:

      Because it would cost them less to take away those rights. In difficult times that will be extremely tempting.

    • Our whole system of training is screwed up and needs a major overhaul. We need to go back to the apprentice system and give kids skills that will be useful in the workplace rather than sending them all to university to get useless degrees and a massive dept burden. It’s a national disgrace that we don’t train enough doctors and nurses for our needs and have to poach them from abroad.

      • Mike Doyle says:

        You cannot train Doctors or Nurses through apprenticeships.
        However, that said there is an overhauled apprenticeship system debate about its efficiency notwithstanding. But those apprenticeships (and adult FE) has European matched funding. That meanss for each of our tax £’s we have a European matched £. That of course will stop at some point in the next two years.
        I cannot see it being replaced from our reduced tax take so if you are an employer thinking of taking on an apprentice do it quickly.

  109. Oh God just another leftie whining about the evil Tories. They still don’t get it. This isn’t about left or right its about democracy. No wonder so many turned their backs on Labour.

  110. Welshies says:

    How can you “vote them out” when it was cross party support for all? Plus I never heard anyone say all the movies would be diverted into the NHS?

  111. Jude Taberner says:

    I, like the 48% of the voters, voted to stay in, as I thought it would be better for my children and their children, but 4% more thought it would be better to leave, including my husband who I voted for in proxy. The last 36 hours have had me astounded by the comments being made by intelligent, respectable, and genuine people on all three sides. I have friends typing on fb from both sides of the fence they will unfriend anyone that voted opposite them; friends back peddling as they find out *shock horror* Farage was lying; and the EU committee saying they want Britain gone as soon as possible and that it will not be an amicable divorce, but the relationship was never loved locked anyway. Why has everyone forgot the good old ‘never fight over politics or religion’. We are still humans and now more than ever we need to stick together to make the most of a bad job. Keep the passion that made you vote and make a difference not from the comfort of your own home as a keyboard warrior, but where it is really needed in your local community. The vote didn’t take away the person you were on Wednesday, no one will ever know the future but we can make sure we shape it right for all the reasons we all wanted it to.

    • Very good sentiment Jude, I wish all remainers were of a similar persuasion. Unfortunately, a lot won’t accept the vote and seem bent on bringing about the sort of apocalypse they were predicting. My fear was always that the Globalists would make things difficult because they’ve never cared about the interests of the actual people of Europe, just their own power and influence.

  112. josey says:

    Tony Blair….voted in as PM in 2001, was proved to be one of the biggest political liars of all time in 2003 (WMD), but people still voted for him in 2005…go figure

    • frpip says:

      You’re right – but there really wan’t another option at that point. The real issue is not just that he was voted back in, but that none of the MPs in the labour party challenged him – because too few of their constituents challenged them to do so.

  113. Ju says:

    I think judging things in one day is isn’t wise. We need to look long term. I don’t particular care about any government, they all lie. But in the EU with 29 unelected people running Europe is dangerous. Don’t be fuelled by the media, who try to evoke fear. The markets are controlled. Before the election, they were faulsely high. It’s all part of a game, the best thing we can do, is not to play along.

    • frpip says:

      I agree that it’s too early to judge. But I have to say there’s been an enormous amount of rolling back of expectations already in the last 24 hours, which worries me.

  114. Adam Moore says:

    You’re a f***ing God.

  115. naked seismologist says:

    I have read this article and the comments with interest. Although the intention was clearly to encourage harmony, many Brexit voters seem to be a mite defensive about their decision. However, my main reason for commenting is that I’m surprised not to have seen any mention of the main reason for voting in favour of voting for Brexit, cited by just about every intelligent Brexiter I discussed the subject with (and of course it seems to be established that immigration was the main driving factor).
    I refer to the fact that there is an ongoing economic migration of millions of the world’s poor towards western Europe, and that the UK has an immense pulling power, on account of its language, its relatively high minimum wage and its relatively generous benefits system – the perceived “land of milk and honey”. The situation is, in the eyes of many people, likely to get a lot worse when Turkey finally manages to acquire freedom of movement for its huge, relatively impoverished population. It has been noted by many concerned people that the EU is being forced to fast-track Turkey’s accession, in return for Turkey’s cooperation in helping to stem the flow; also that David Cameron is on record as a foremost supporter of Turkey’s accession.
    Under current EU rules, there is absolutely nothing that any member state can do to limit or control the in-flow of migrants, and many of those recently arrived from Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, Syria, etc. may well be granted passports and hence freedom of movement within the EU, at the discretion of their host country,
    The news has for a very long time been dominated by horror stories about hordes of migrants, marching through Europe, or being trafficked from North Africa or Turkey, or being rescued from the Med. Many people have great sympathy with the plight of these people, whether genuine refugees or economic migrants, but they are also alarmed about the prospect of the UK being swamped – inundated – by this phenomenon, without any ability to control it or to screen the incomers. That is not to be bigoted or xenophobic – an easy card to play – but to be realistic about the ability of this country to cope with massive immigration – and from countries that in may instances do not share our culture or values, and whose inhabitants may not integrate well into our society.
    There goes a racist I hear you say. However I did not vote for Brexit and have no objection to living in a multi-cultural UK, and I get along fine with nationals of any country, provided that they are friendly. I am merely repeating the concerns that have been expressed to me by just about every Brexiter I’ve spoken to. If the worries about uncontrolled immigration and national security were to be removed from the equation, the vote in favour of remaining would have been overwhelming, to my mind.

    • Rich says:

      Just a quick note on this; Turkey will never become a part of the EU whilst Cyprus and Greece hold a veto. If you know anything about their regional politics you will know why.

  116. Jo says:

    I also voted leave.Iknow I am one of the difficult old ones but I remember the vote to join the Common Market in 1974/5 I voted to join this but I have never been asked wether I wanted to join this EU superstate they are constructing. I believe in my country , and the strong
    Diverse people. Lots of rubbish is talked about being racist if you even mention immigration.Well I am going to mention it where in the world is it racist.My concern is we have been so busy letting everyone in we have forgot to repair our roads, drainage and sewerage systems, NHS, school places,the total infer structure . How is it thinking you are so good if the immigrants are expected to
    Live in these conditions as well as the other population. Surely it is better to prepare for this than than just open the gates with out any care for immigrants BUT the worse thing is 60% of our laws are made in the EU that means we only have input into 40% of our laws. That is not democracy even the young must wonder about this. Have you not considered that (allowing for the fact the EU will not give us an inch) when all the other proposed countries join we would be degraded to the status of a county .. And we from the north know how much say counties have !! But we would still be expected to be a major contributor. Wake up and have faith in your wonderful, strong country that even under horrific attacks during the last war stood together and came though.We did the unthinkable and sent a liberation force thousands of miles across the oceans to the Faklands .I make no comment on the right or wrongs of these actions but ask to to think of the sheer strength of our nation For goodness sake we ( the size we are) are the fifth largest economy. I rest my case.

    • Mike says:

      Like all Brexit voters you need to read Article 5 of the Treaty of the EU – it’s all about subsidiarity. Decisions are made at the lowest local level appropriate to the matter in hand. What can be wrong with that? As we will be leaving the Free Trade zone – the clue is in the title – then logically any foreign company wanting to trade in Europe will not set up in the UK. You can guarantee that the next new Nissan will not be made in the North East as they cannot take a chance that tariffs will not be levied. So well done to Sunderland and the North East – you have just voted yourselves out of a job. Falklands!! Not only shameful but quite bizarre

  117. Derek Mitchell says:

    Interesting debates from a variety of angles, and, er, intellects. No one mentioned this fact: roughly 17 million voted Leave, 16 million voted Remain, and about 12 million didn’t vote at all. From the perspective of Australia, where turning up to vote is compulsory, it’s very strange. This is not democracy – it’s numerical sophistry, masquerading as democracy. And just in case you’re wondering, I don’t know how I’d have voted ….

  118. Anonymous says:

    This one is for David Cameron who wanted to leave the EU two years ago ,what made him change his mind, did he lie to us too. Maybe he did guess that’s why he’s quite as promised .I think he should stay till the end of his term and help sort all this out to make hi what it should be

  119. J says:

    The European parliament is voted on; the EU Council is voted on as it is made up of elected members of Government of each EU country – usually the Prime Minister or equivalent or the Deputy. That just leaves the EU commission – yes they are appointed – by our voted in representatives – and they (as far as I know) are more the pen pushers than the deciders, formulating policy that the other two arms vote on. Happy to be corrected on the last bit. As for our own great Representative Democracy? The First Past the post system, though easy, clean and to the point – means you can have a group of people in absolute charge with only a whisker over 50% of the vote – and as MPs are constituency based there are many voters out there who know their voices will never matter – try being a non conservative voter in Bromley and Chislehurst – forget it – your vote will never count. Some system of PR might mean it could count.
    and as for being representative once the MP is in Parliament! har har… the very early point above about Whips is very important. We kid ourself thinking our MPs represent our views in the law making process – yes they have surgeries, look into local issues and work on their constituents behalf – but they tow the party line in voting. They do not represent you – they represent their party.

    • Steve Hayes says:

      It doesn’t need 50% of the vote to get absolute control under first past the post. The Tories got 37% last year. But there you go, we had a referendum about that too and got the wrong result, the chief argument being that it was “too complicated”!

      • frpip says:

        The problem with AV was that in many circumstances it can produce a vote which is even more skewed that FPTP. I’m hugely in favour of the PR we have in Scotland for the Scottish Parliament, but AV is neither proportional, nor in my view more representational.

  120. Catherine says:

    But the people who voted to leave didn’t vote for this government in the first place. The reason leave won is because of a massive distrust of the government. They have lied to is for 6 years. The same people who voted to stay most probably hold responsibility for voting the conservatives back in last year. I felt exactly the same way then as you do now; that there was no future for my family. I felt despair at a government who only cared about the super rich but had convinced many of the middle classes that they too could aspire to be like them.
    I voted out and I use my vote at every opportunity. I am university educated, work in the public sector and really hope this referendum has lit a fire under the under privileged who also voted out, so they use their votes.
    If you left school for university and university for a skilled job you will never truly understand working in a recycling plant for minimum wage with no one else who speaks English. You will not know how degrading it makes you feel to be trying to provide for your family and the only work you can get is a zero hours minimum wage temporary contract.
    Yes this might have been a protest but I hope that the government realise they’ve treated half of the country with total disregard at their peril.

    • Paul says:

      Hi Catherine,

      I can say with certainty that none of my many friends who voted to remain in the EU voted Tory at the last general election – they voted Labour, Liberal Democrat or Green.

      We voted remain for 2 reasons:

      Pretty well all the problems of the World, including exploitation of workers’ rights, corporate power, climate change, migration and epidemics can only be tackled by countries working together across borders. It is only by achieving common standards of excellence in these areas that we can prevent individual countries (including the UK!) from failing to face up to their responsibilities.

      Far from helping to “take back our country” from “The Establishment” (whatever that is!), leaving the EU simply allows the Tory government and its big business backers to further dilute protection for workers and the environment.

      I’m a scientist by training and science teaches you that most issues are far more complex than they may appear at first glance. Consequently, finding the correct solution requires a proper in depth understanding (what I call the “big picture”). Sadly, politicians rarely provide this insight and some (eg. Mr Gove) seem keen to discredit genuine knowledge and expertise. Consequently, the debate descends into simplistic misleading exchanges with one half-truth being used to counter another.

      No, the EU is not perfect, but I have no doubt at all that if more people had ignored the politicians and considered the true complexity of the issues, the UK would have voted to remain in the EU.

  121. ET says:

    Very good clear headed, non abusive response. Probably the best ones I’ve seen so far. Democracy means voting the way you want to, but then hold those you voted for accountable!

  122. Anonymous says:

    A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn’t be at the ‘back of the queue’ after all and that our ‘special relationship’ was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be ‘orderly’ and stressed the UK would continue to be a ‘close partner’ of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom

    • Rich says:

      Third time today I’ve seen this copy and paste. It’s interesting to note that in order to prob up the pound the bank of England has just spent the equivalent of 25 years of EU membership (going by figures from the financial times). Also worth mentioning that a close relationship is not the same as a trade agreement (especially as Obama will not be in office for much longer) and one bank keeping it’s staff in the UK is not indicative of all international businesses.

      However in the same time period we have also had Farage backpedal on NHS funding, and tory MP Daniel Hannan state that immigration will not be significantly affected (two issues I’m sure many based their vote on).

  123. Smith says:

    We don’t need lessons in accountability from the remain campaign. You’re preaching to the converted here!

  124. Les Royal says:

    I listened to a radio interview on Wednesday before the vote. A lady who had set up a small business, had to conform to various EU regulations which had a detrimental affect on her production costs. When trying to find new business in Europe found that similar businesses across Europe were operating without conforming to the rules. When asked by the interviewer if she had contacted her MP and MEP I was dismayed at her answer. Her local MP simply said it was an EU matter. Now to contact her MEP she was told that direct contact is not possible, she had to employ a ‘lobbyist’ at an initial cost of £12,000 who would contact the MEP for her. After that she would have to pay the ‘lobbyist’ £2000 every time she needed a message passing to the MEP. The system is set up in such a way that small businesses have no voice, only big businesses can afford to lobby the MEP’s Just one more example of how undemocratic the EU institution is!

    • frpip says:

      That’s very true – countries like Germany and UK have a much better record of actually obeying the rules than others. If there are rules, they need to be equally well enforced.

  125. Jaime Fields says:

    The working class may well feel this was the first time they were listened to. Unfortunately they voted against their own best interests.

  126. One of the dammed says:

    I totally agree with your assessment but let’s see shall we before you cleave the country apart let it heal first.

  127. Nn says:

    All the out voters are fooling themselves that it is about the EU. It is about your own government and disenfranchised parts of society. The EU was not running your country, your government never had the decency to stand for their own decisions. They used Brussels as the scapegoat for all that is wrong.
    You have been fooled and tricked!

  128. Bill F says:

    The UK has now established many. many road blocks in doing any kind of business with the rest of Europe. Small businesses probably do not see the harm, but companies doing international business will.
    The UK has put itself alone on an island, in this day and age, that is most definitely not a good thing

    • Denise Tanner says:

      When you order something do you order it from a Company or from a Country? We are not going to stop trading with companies and neither are they going to stop trading with British businesses. Many countries trade with each other without Trade Agreements.

  129. Paula says:

    It makes me laugh, all u ppl suddenly becoming members of parliament and knowing exactly what’s gonna happen, ur all going on what you’ve heard or read, some of u I agree with and others I’m gobsmacked u dared to reply with the dribble, at the end of the day, we survived without the eu before and will again, nobody quite knows exactly what’s gonna happen, it’s apparently gonna take two years for us to actually leave the eu, plenty of time for things to get put in place, until then we are still standing where we were on Thursday before the result!

  130. Inder Kaul says:

    Common man is ignore the and does not understand much about these crucial decisions. So it was the duty of the law makers of EU to create a situation that would not have created doubts in the minds of the common person, thereby giving room to opportunists to exploit the situation.
    Now in the days to come voters may throw people out of power or they may keep them but the damage has been done and cannot be reversed in a short time.

  131. George Gardner says:

    Lots of points but for the shockingly high number of embittered remain supporters it would be wasted on themThis is a wonderful opportunity for our country and it’s equally wonderful that the working classes (overlooked for so long) have had such a positive impact.
    Perhaps it’s worthwhole to make just one point that the architects who led us into “Black Friday” and who advocated doom and gloom if we didn’t join the Eurozone are the very ones who advocated remain.

  132. Felicity says:

    I thought this was condescending and arrogant. ‘I told you so’ but in advance. Repeating again what has been said over and over again before the Referendum. Move on.

  133. Anonymous says:

    I’m in the leave camp for the long term. Forget all the panic of the plummeting pound, it’s already back to a level equal to somewhere this year, and shares that dropped were gambling already, on the remain outcome, they only lost their winnings.. So please, think long term.
    Just imagine a situation, like a dictatorship, where you cannot ever vote out the ‘firm’ that runs the EU. Imagine if it become like FIFA or North Korea. We can vote out any leader of this country, even chuck him out on a ‘no confidence’. However, we are about to use our fire alarm, to leave via article 50. After a short bumpy period, we will ALL have our chance to shape our own futures. As the UK leaders, will have to account for their actions. Yes, I will vote them out, as and when they lie, deceive, and break their manifesto. Because we can! Because we are democratic. We nearly slid into a huge mess, with an ever increasing financial burden, and cross border tsunami, that our beautiful Kingdom, could not sustain. Along with a deficit, seemingly out of control. The People of this country are from all walks of life, cities, towns, corners, and yonder, and all have as much rights as the elite, and elected, even when incapacitated.
    The Public, used their trump card to tell Europe just how British we are. It was not a flash in the pan.
    The whole world was watching, the world blinked a few times, mouths open, just like we did in our homes, agog at the screens and the figures. The World will watch us, and learn.
    There is no better opportunity for such a civilised country to show those around them, how to thrive.
    We are coming out of recession, and I’m surfing……on the first wave!

  134. Anonymous says:

    People who are hungry for power and become politicians are flawed in their make up.
    Very few honest politicians exist today and the few we have had ( Tony Ben as example) were vilified by the popular press like the Mirror who’s headline sums up their complete lack of understanding ‘ What the hell do we do now’
    I started a Brexit supporter but after listening to the lies and blatant racist attitudes being used to scare people into voting to leave, in the stupid assumption that immigration issues would be solved if we did leave , I changed to the remain camp. Sadly they proffered equal lies and misinformation and we now have to undo the damage caused by our self interested politicians as a light middleweight instead of the heavyweight we were.
    Nonetheless its in everyone’s interest to stop blaming and become part of the solution ( not part of the problem ) to mend our damaged society by removing racism in all its forms, I get everyone, Starbucks , Google and the elite classes to pay their dues and bring about a more daring society that we once were .

    • frpip says:

      I honestly don’t think MPs are power-hungry corrupt people – Jo Cox wasn’t, and in my experience none of the politicians I have taken time to know were. But they are stuck in a system where people want quick solutions and easy answers, and where you almost always get voted out if you put people’s taxes up. They need to be better, yes, but we need to be better too.

  135. Denise Tanner says:

    Your first sentence says if all! No I didn’t just listen to the arguments from either side I did my own research. I read The Five President’s Report, The EU Commissions Vision for the Future, I looked at the EU”s reports on spending, allocation of funds. I read research done on the effects of migration (not just in the UK but in Germany, France, Sweden, Austria). I read report after report on the economy of countries such as France, Spain,. Italy, Greece. I also looked at reports on the situation between the EU and Russia, particularly the EU ‘s expansion plans for Moldova and Georgia and the EU’s dependence on gas from Russia. I considered the USA’s backing of this expansion. After doing all this I decided that LEAVING was the best option.

    • frpip says:

      I’m glad you did, and I’m sorry if you thought I was implying you didn’t vote out of lots of thought. I hope we all did. But I do think some folk voted because they put their trust in some folk who were telling them immigration would come down and we would have more money for our NHS. In which case, I think it’s only fair enough to ask those people to call those folk to account if they don’t deliver on those promises.

      • Denise Tanner says:

        Yes I agree with that point but it also applies to Remain voters equally. Both campaigns relied on scare tactics and on the electorate believing everything they were told and not checking things out. I would be a wealthy person if I had a pound (or a euro) for each time I read or listened to someone saying they were voting to remain so they could still go on holiday to Spain or so their children could travel abroad.

      • frpip says:

        Absolutely. We all have a duty to promote honesty in politics.

  136. Carole Brown says:

    I guess all who voted to stay in..me me .me will be watching like hawks to see if the Brexiter’s were right!. However I cannot stand. We told you so gloating.

    I make the observation ,people who had not even voted when it was possible for them to do so are the one’s with the loudest voices

  137. dawn brown says:

    Well said and respect to you. We know the pound already fell, we have heard on the news today that brexit have said they didn’t promise the change in immigration so already lies

  138. WhatNowDoc says:

    frpip: My wife sent me a link to your article. She’s hurting right now, like you and some of your correspondents. My wife doesn’t too much care about the finite details of the issues. What she heard and felt during the campaign was anger and bitterness, much of it directed at immigrants and much of it giving voice to some people who most of us would find, lets say, a little challenging in social company. She reacts viscerally and a lot of that is rooted in her origins as a second generation New Yorker born of Jewish parents fleeing persecution in Poland before the war. I think that’s understandable. All she wants is peace and love and in her home town that’s what she felt, that’s what she remembers, acceptance of all immigrant communities, we’re all immigrants together and we’ve been welcomed into this wonderful new city/country. Now obviously it wasn’t all quite as she remembers, there’s a lot more to it than that but it imbued her with mental antenna that howl at the slightest hint of racism, discrimination or persecution. I can’t mention the word “Trump” in her presence.

    All she, and many others I’m reading and hearing from, took away from this referendum was that it was about hate and racism. She didn’t “hear” the issues. A Leaver is a racist. I’ve been talking with her a great deal about it and its been difficult. She saw your article and pointed me to it as part of that discussion and I think she chose it because it hit that forgiving, peaceful chord she has been seeking. I found your sentiments to be a calm and measured rationalisation of your own turmoil over this decision. They’re not mine, I don’t share them but I don’t dismiss the sentiment and I applaud the way you have chosen to address them. I applaud also the compassionate and reflective way in which you handled many of the comments which, in our social media age, reflect the casual way in which it has become fashionable to be rude and mean to one another. Many of the comments have been from very genuine people who, even when they didn’t possess your eloquence, were able to make their concerns felt. I disagree with much, I agree with some, most of them confirm in me my innate and studied fear of democracy. You would think that people ought to be able to learn something, some wisdom, some facts from the politicians who chose to apply for the job of running the country and who are paid out of our taxes, who are thus employed by us. You would, of course, be very naive to think that if you’ve lived on this earth for any amount of time.

    Churchill said something along the lines that democracy is a terrible system of government but the others are worse. I take the point but I choose to ignore it. I have a simpler philosophy which is equally imperfect but as I have no power to change the way things work today, it’s equally as valid. I simply expect that if you take your employer’s shilling, you should be qualified for the job and you should perform that job to the very best of your abilities. If you are lacking in either qualification or ability then you should leave or be sacked. I see no reason to apply a different set of standards to politicians. They, of course, adopt an entirely different view. They will say whatever we will swallow to obtain the post, regardless of qualification or ability and they will do and say whatever it takes to retain it, despite any and all protestation on the part of their employer. Once in post, they know better than their employer. They answer to no-one except a mass movement garnered into collective action by extreme economic circumstances, such as the 1945, 1979, 1997 and 2010 elections. This referendum is of that order and reflects similar motivations. For the most part, they are not reasoned decisions based on what they were told by politicians, they are visceral reactions to extreme concerns. They are all a vote *against* something, never *for* something. They are always negative, they are always a leap in the dark, a wrecking of the status quo. We throw the whole pack of cards up in the air and we live in hope that they will fall back down into some reasonable and acceptable form. That’s how human society evolves. It’s not clever, it’s not ideal, it’s all we have because it’s all we are granted by those that would dupe us with their intoxicating lure called “democracy”.

    So, I’m afraid I won’t be one of those “voting them out”, whoever “them” are because I don’t have that power. Trust me, if I could, I would. My first vote in 1975 for our continued membership of the EEC was a referendum vote, every vote counted and I was on the “winning” side. The promises made to me to secure my vote were lies. In 1979 I liked the proposal to “have a woman run the country”. I duped myself. Since then I’ve never voted as I’ve had no power to even contribute to change. This referendum was different. Once again I had a chance to cast a vote that could count. I trusted them, against all experience, to respect my vote. I voted for one simple thing “Leave the EU”. I didn’t vote for anything that any “vote leave advocate” promised me, because they can’t promise it to me and they should never have been asked. The entire point of this referendum was to Leave, not to ask what would happen *after* we left. Right now, I’m not at all convinced that they’ll honour the result of the vote. If they do that, I’ll be satisfied. After that, we’re back to the old fashioned way of doing things. They’ll lie for your vote, then they’ll do whatever they want to do and you’ll use our very flawed democratic system to try to hold them to account. Good luck. We’ve thrown the cards up in the air for you. It’s up to them what they do with it unless there’s a revolution. I wrote a small extract of my Brexit considerations which you really might enjoy:
    https://whatnowdoc.com/2016/06/16/if-we-vote-to-remain-we-are-done-for/

    We’ll be fine.
    x

    • frpip says:

      Great post, many thanks for this. I take your view on this, but I think we Do have power – far far more power than we imagine. I was in my supermarket a couple of months back, and they had no fair trade coffee, so I asked to speak to the Manager. I did, and she said “you’re the fourth person who’s asked me about that” and next week they had some in. Four people.
      Politicians often want to do the right thing, but they need letters, emails, mandates to do things which the parties might not approve of. Contributing, sharing your voice, holding them to account, gives the good ones a mandate to do the right thing. And it scares the pants of those who think they will be voted out.

  139. Peter Schellingerhout says:

    I have followed the Brexit campaign (Leave and Remain) and I must say, I have never heard so much nonsense. Lies and half stories. Only a few people I have seen on the BBC spoke the truth. I am Dutch, living in the Netherlands and an European. I also don’t agree on the red tape and slow action from Brussels. That has to change, cause everywhere in Europe people are fed up with it. The Leave choise made clear that it is time to act now. But Leave voters. The UK does not weekly pay 350 mil. Sterling to the EU. It is 120 mil. That is a fact. Mr Farage had to admitt it was a mistake. Still a lot, but check what you have got in return the past 40 years. The standard of living has improved inmense, there are good motorways, modern Hospitals a much better infrastructure and parts of cities were upgraded with financial help from the EU. When the UK entered the EU it was one of the poorest if not the poorest country in the EU. Immigration is an issue. I do understand, but it is not due to the EU. Germany an the Netherlands have much better social security plans then the UK. The Eastern European immigrants were looking for work. When they joint the EU the individual countries had the opportuny to close their borders for 7 months. Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands did. The UK govrnement did not. 3 mil, eastern europeans live and work now in the UK. Not here and not in Germany, but in the UK. Not the fault of the EU, but the UK politicians. I read of all those great perks you have in the UK. Sorry, but those people are bad, very badly informed. Like most Dutch I have 6 weeks holiday a year and instead of 12 salarys a year 14. One extra salary in May and one extra in December. Our wages are much higher(exception of London) and are health plan, pension plan, unemployment and disablement plan is much better. Without the economic uncertainty for the coming years, the fact that you will still have to deal with the EU and not with individual countries the future does not look great. London will in time no longer be the financial gateway to Europe anymore, you still will pay 120 mil Pound to do business with the EU, your NHS won’t improve, the immigrants won’t go. That are some of the consequences of the leave vote. Farage was talking about a Nexit. Fool. Yes in a small scale telephone inquiry 56% of the people said yes to a referendum. 46% of them wants to remain. Even without the UK the EU is a large and strong economic power.

    • frpip says:

      One of the things I had hoped would be more debated was the fact that the rest of the EU is far more “eurosceptic”than it has been for years. Many countries, most countries want change, and if we had staying in, the UK could have played a very important part in changing the EU for the better. However, road not taken…

      • Peter Schellingerhout says:

        You are right, most countries want change. People are eurosceptic because of the populists that blame brussels, the immigrants and if needed even the weather. But shouting that everything is wrong doesnot help. I haven’t heard those populists comming withe ideas or solutions. And trust me it is a sad time for all of us. The UK belongs in the EU.

  140. Anonymous says:

    We won’t lose any of our working rights, our government were at the forefront of getting these laws passed into EU and British law. This vote was a massive moment for this country and only time will tell if we were correct. But I completely agree it is now down to us to get this country how we want it and finally get our government working for the best interests of us the people.

  141. “So please, if you find that they lied to you, vote them out. And vote for the people who will tell you uncomfortable, complicated truths, rather than easy, simple lies.”

    Who exactly is it that will these uncomfortable complicated truths?

    • frpip says:

      MPs. “Experts”. Business and Charity leaders. Honest men and women who desire more than anything a chance to be honest with the electorate.

  142. Anonymous says:

    Immigration is unlikely to reduce in numbers, if anything we may need more … but we will now be able to have migration to recruit for certain skill gaps (teaching, medicine, engineers etc) and now from anywhere around the world. The free movement of an unskilled immigration workforce to the UK in the hopes of finding work amounts to around 7-8%. This could still happen with company sponsorship, or self funding.

  143. anon says:

    It would be good to find someone who tells us “uncomfortable, complicated truths” – no current policician seems to do that.

    • frpip says:

      That’s because we don’t tend to vote for the ones that do. We vote for the ones offering simple solutions, silver bullets, and snake oil. That’s not a party point by any means, btw. I’ve long since given up on the party system.

  144. sue says:

    politicians not honouring election promises is par for the course. Sadly even David didn’t ‘re-negotiate’ our membership deal & then the EU said ‘there never would be a fresh deal for us (UK).I will keep posting on 38 degrees & hope the fire to obtain the best for the people of Great Britain resides with our new prime minister!

  145. Kate Bagenal-Lowe says:

    Dear Brexiteer,
    I you feel you have made a genuine mistake, been duped by liars whose lies were repeated so much by the biased media, make sure you vote the other way next time, for truth, friendship, care and understanding. But first, sign this

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
    Thank you,
    Kate

    • Gavin says:

      No thanks your all panicking because of the scare tactics used to make you vote to remain still hold you. Stop sulking and give it a chance before you implode with fear . it is democracy and the majority of the country wants change and this was the only chance to get it . were prepared for the storm before the calm to get our country back. Well done all leave voters for having courage to demand change .

      • frpip says:

        Gavin, I’m not afraid. I’m not sulking. I’m not panicking. I’m just keen to make sure that those who made promises keep them.

      • Anonymous says:

        I think what is being said here isn’t that it won’t work what is being said is in the event that it turns out the what was promised is lies then in the next general election vote those who have lied out.

      • frpip says:

        Only they didn’t all want change, did they?
        A significant amount of people who voted leave are now saying they did so as a “protest” and never thought we would actually leave. Many of them are saying they wish they could vote again; so it’s not really democracy, is it?!

      • frpip says:

        To be fair, the question was on the paper. Do you want to remain or leave. Anyone who didn’t want to Leave should have ticked the box marked “Remain”. I think it’s a bit daft for folk to turn round now and say “I didn’t mean it”. It may not be what they meant, but it is what they voted for.

      • Anonymous says:

        Just wanted to point out that technically only 32% of the country voted for change, which in my book does not count as the majority, unless the definition of majority has changed since I left Britain four years ago, having been given the opportunity to work in another EU country. Now I’m left wondering what affect this will have on my job, my children’s lives now and in the future and I don’t see any of the vote leave camp with any answers as yet!

      • Anonymous says:

        Keep an eye on the real news Gavin. You may find calm a long time coming.

      • Jane says:

        Its a bit like Nero fiddling while Rome burns, don’t you think?

      • Nope says:

        Oh Gavin, stop regurgitating Daily Mail buzzwords and think. Make sure that the people you have supported actually hold their promises, that’s all the above is saying. If you choose to interpret that as “scare tactics” then I don’t believe you have a clue what you’re talking about or what you voted for. If you think so little of yourself that you don’t care whether your vote has consequences then that’s very sad, and unfortunately affects all of us. Don’t dip your toe into democracy, either get involved properly or stuff off.

    • Tony Gingell says:

      If a runner completed a 500 metre race but a photo finish, would you expect the second place runner to demand a second chance? I have over successive years watched prime ministers from ALL political parties go to the EU for a better deal for this country or to ask for reform. On the whole, they have been rejected and the UK has been made out to be a trouble maker. Well soon we will be gone and either they will be glad to see us gone or finally reform will happen. I for one have NOT been lied to and voted exit based on what I seen and heard over many years.

      • john hoggett says:

        maybe not, but that is what N Farage said he would do if the vote was for leave and it was close.

        So questioning the validity of the result is something the leave campaign might well have done if they had lost.

      • frpip says:

        I agree that Farage said that, but I’m not going to do something just because Nigel Farage thought it was a good idea! I think we live in a democracy, and I lost. Time to move on.

      • john hoggett says:

        N Farage said that if remain won and it was a close result he would demand for another vote.

        It was close, now some of the remain camp are doing what Farage said he would do.

  146. Dear Remainer,

    If you want me to vote the bastards out of they don’t do what they said they’d do, give me an option that has a reasonable chance of being elected. Yours, Brexiteer.

    • frpip says:

      We all get to vote. Vote for the person who sounds most honest, who won’t tell you simplistic solutions to complicated problems, and who will admit they don’t know everything. In my time I’ve always done that, and I’ve voted for almost every party – and always written and spoken to them on issues that matter to me. Never regretted a single vote.

      • I’ve always voted that way. I’m a swing voter, and will listen to arguments, read up and consider before casting my vote. I voted out because I believe my country can do better, that we as a nation can be better, and in many ways I look forward to the revitalisation of democracy that can happen if we work together and realise that our future is in all of our hands. While I believe that things will be better, I am under no illusions that things will be easy or simple. And it is time to get to work. For me the first job is to help my countrymen and women heal.

    • Evelyn MacLean says:

      Yes!! And so say all of us!!!

  147. Anonymous says:

    “Vote them out” thats why I voted to leave, if we’d stayed, we’d have lost more and more of the power to hold our government accountable, now all we need is a good government worth voting for.

  148. croz says:

    The real result, outcome…endgame is not which way the vote goes, but how the nation remains as such. With the fabric of cohesion, unity and mutual respect and tolerance. Viewed from a distance, and with absolute clarity, ‘it’ – this referendum – is, without any shadow of a doubt, one of the potentially most divisive and repellent campaigns devised and deployed to [potentially] divide a nation. As if there were not already enough intolerance, fear and division within. How to quell rebellion and revolution…?…fracture cohesion and the fabric of that which would hold sway in the face of government atrocities abroad and at home.

    However you voted…I hope above all else you, we, all ‘remain one’

    • Susan says:

      David Cameron started this no one else so he could win the election he and he only is to blame by promising the country a referendum on the EU why didn’t he just leave well alone

  149. We are a very small country, no more than a spit in the ocean, so for one thing stop this Great Britian mentality…Petite Britain maybe. My point being, now we have taken ourselves out of Europe, we are not only a small country we are a vulnerable one.
    Capitalism knows no bounderies and our vulnerability will attract all the slave labour employers.
    It was only our membership in Europe that stopped the conservatives from taking away all our human right and health and safety and many other, ‘rights’.
    My second point is. No it was not an act of democracy. People voted for a lie. How can presenting a lie as a truth in order to cheat the country of its right to make an informed choice be democratic. I believe this vote to leave Europe is disqualified because it has defrauded the people of this country a right to an authentic democratic vote based on the true facts of the situation.
    It’s just a pity i cannot swear because there are not words in the English language that can describe the rage I feel at this moment.
    How can you be proud of a country that elects tricksters to defraud the people of their democratic rights and then not do anything to address the fraudulent actions and consequences of it.
    This is a good example of what i mean when i say that we are not only a small country now we are also a vulnerable small country…We cannot take this issue to Europe Court now…..So just think of how many other issues are going to be accepted by the ruling class on our behalf and we have no where to go for help…
    So hello slaves of the capitalist and we are now a country ready for slavery ….

    • Anonymous says:

      NONSENSE

    • Denise Tanner says:

      What true facts of the situation? You mean the Contents of The Five Presidents Report. the EU’ s Vision for the Future if the EU? The economic situation in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece or even France? Or perhaps your talking about the EU’s plans for bringing Georgia and Moldova into the EU thereby provoking Russia even more than they already have done over Ukraine? If we’re talking about electing tricksters and defrauders then no I’m not proud of those who elected Tony Blair!

    • Anonymous says:

      Please calm down if the elite in uk end Europe listened more this would never have happened. They brought it on themselves. This is democracy . voting for EEC And getting EU . There is no reason other than spite why we can’t all trade and travel without all the Endless waste. EU is on a mission and won’t listen to any opinion but their own. Look how they treat Greece . Their project is all that counts. I’m pleased we are out.

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said Margaret.

    • Gerwyn pickett says:

      Slave labour you know nothing if you are a employer and have a 10 jobs at min wage and have 100 people apply you can rest that at lest 10 will take the job if you have 10 jobs and only 8 apply you have to make the jobs more attractive how simple offer more money like it or leave it it’s a capitalism world a large pool of labour will always attract low wages you talk about democracy we voted you lost get over it some of the crap that the remain put out was laughable

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said

    • Shaz says:

      yes, you are so right!!!! and I am furious too – most of the people that voted to leave had no idea about what they were actually voting for and yes they were lied to! And look what has been happening (proving a point that many that voted were actually racist people that now feel they have a right to shout their bs as loud as they like) all over to decent, normal human beings!! I still feel sick after the vote – I am concerned for my children and I am actually concerned that interest rates will go up so much I, and many other families, will not be able to afford to keep our homes!

    • Jane says:

      I feel your rage and frustration too. The fact is that I have heard first hand of people thinking they were making a protest vote. I posted on my FB page my frustration and sadness. I was verbally attacked by persons that I don’t know personally. The remarks they made were typical of those that take on face value what they want to hear so they may afford blame to those innocent weaker parties. Some remarks were evidently against immigrants. Shocking and dangerous people and some people jumped into the political bed with them to prove a point.

  150. Tony Gingell says:

    Can you please tell me what political party that you have ever voted for, who then got into power, carried out all of their manifesto promises? Yes, it’s true that BOTH sides came up with some wild claims but as no one has ever left the EU before, neither camp knows exactly what will happen over the 40 odd years.

  151. Anne says:

    Re: Worker’s Rights (in particular women)
    1975 – Sex Discrimination Act Act of Parliament of the U.K.
    1975 – Employment Protection Act of Parliament of the U.K.

    Re: Farming subsidies:
    Many farmers argue that the benefit from the EU’s subsidy rarely reaches them, in any case: supermarkets factor in the expected income in their calculations of what to pay their suppliers.
    George Eustice, the farming minister, told the National Farmers’ Union (NFU) annual conference on Wednesday that they would be better off out of the EU. “We would do far better as a country if we ended the supremacy of Europe and shaped new fresh-thinking policies that really deliver for our agriculture,” he said. “The truth of the matter is that if we left the EU there would be an £18bn a year dividend, so could we find the money to spend £2bn a year on farming and the environment? Of course we could. Would we? Without a shadow of a doubt.”

    Re: Fish stock
    In 2015, the UK was allocated 30% of the EU quota for fishing ground stocks which occur in UK waters.
    The area of UK waters relative to other member states is certainly high.
    With current polls showing that there is a fairly even split among the general population between those wishing to remain and leave, we found no such split among fishermen. As many as 92% intend to vote to leave the EU – a uniformity of opinion that is unmatched by any other economic or social group in the UK.

    Re: Trade
    Indeed, it is a sclerotic EU, with its terror of competing with the great economies of the world (to this day, it has no trade deals with America, China, Japan, Brazil or India) which is backward-looking and locked into the past.
    As the world’s fifth largest economy we should be able to forge deals with countries keen to sell to our affluent consumers.
    We do know that the Germans will still hunger to sell us their cars, the Spaniards to welcome our currency-rich holidaymakers, and the world will want the unique skills of the City of London

    Britain’s NHS can’t survive staying in the European Union (The Telegraph)

    Those who voted Leave did so because they want the U.K. to make its own laws, control its own borders, choose its own trading partners — and, crucially, they want to reclaim the right to elect their rulers and dismiss them if they betray their trust.

  152. Lorna Clarke says:

    I voted to remain and I couldn’t agree more with the point about needing to import skills as a result of not training our own.

    I do however feel this article on the whole to be extremely patronizing and condescending. God knows what a Leaver must feel on reading it!

    • frpip says:

      I suppose that’s just my natural charm coming through 😦

    • frpip says:

      To be fair (to myself) Lorna, this blog normally gets less than a thousand views, and is generally viewed by people who know me or know of me. This particular post has been read by a quarter of a million people which is a bit weird for me. It was written on Friday morning after a night of anxiety andworry on my part, so I hope you’ll forgive me if it is not the best of me.

    • Bob H says:

      As a leaver, I was pleasantly surprised at the level headed comments rather than the hysterical majority of remains.
      My biggest concern in not voting to stay in was how the EU would have walked all over us had we not come out.
      We need to give ourselves a chance, no we are not a world class economy any more but we are still respected and I suspect all the more so now.
      I agree we should be training more of our own population for trades and skills rather than paying them to do nothing, but that argument holds whichever way we’d voted.
      Thanks for a reasoned comment

  153. Bri says:

    First of all, you have it all wrong. Apparently I did nothing the same as you. I made a list of all the points I thought were important and then did my own research. That’s when I decided to vote leave. You cannot trust anyone to make these decisions for you, but you did. BOTH sides lied constantly throught the run up.
    You failed to mention any of the points that were important for me. Possible because my points related to facts that were not promised by anyone. Like the fact that the EU were unable to sign off their financial accounts for 12 years and have never provided accounts that were free from material irregularities. Or the inability of the UK to deport known terrorists. Or their inability to prevent known terrorists and convicted criminals from crossing their borders.
    There were no winners with this vote.

  154. Lynne Burton says:

    Margaret you can bleat on about how we are now going to be exploited because we have voted to leave but hey here’s the deal we were being exploited and rights eroded while we were in, the working class have always been exploited, that’s just the way it is and always has been!!! Its unlikely to change regardless of who is in charge, its just that some politicians wrap up the oppression in a prettier package!

  155. Mrs Smith says:

    As yourself this: Would you be expecting this of people had the majority vote gone the other way? We all had a vote, we all had our reasons for our decision. Please respect that.

    • frpip says:

      I think in all honesty, I would have expected myself, and all of us, to hold remainers to their promises, and get a better deal for all of us out of the EU. I do respect your decision, I just want us to work to make the UK as good as it can be together. Unless Scotland leaves of course 😦

    • David W says:

      Given that Nigel Farage had quite specifically stated that if the Leavers lost 52 to 48, he’d contest the result all the way…. isn’t it slightly hypocritical for him (and you, as a Leaver) to now expect the Remainers to sit back? Your side was committed to NOT respecting the result.

  156. Anon says:

    But when the promises are broken – which they will be – where shoud an angry Brexiteer place their vote? Quite feasiby in the box marked “English Defence League”.

  157. David says:

    You are so right in saying that we are now a small and vulnerable country. The European courts at least offered an avenue through which to challenge the ideological changes that the Tories sought to impose. That is soon to be gone. Legal aid is cut to the bone and appealing the wrong decisions of those private companies paid to make disability assessments is not an option. IDS did not step down as a result of benefit cuts to pay for tax relief for the rich. He will now represent a resurgent threat.God help us if he and his kind are not neutered. Nor is the Holy Grail of privatisation of our services any better. It just leads to higher prices, poorer service and foreign ownership of essential services. Look at Thames Water, they were forbidden to increase prices by Offwat as supplying water is a basic essential. So instead they introduced a daily service charge and hiked the waste water charges, bills have trebled. All out of the agreement negotiated as a condition of the privatisation sale. Happily we are not powerless and the House of Lords holds a good deal of influence at the moment. It will take time for this government to enact changes and hopefully the population will have learned their lesson and exercise their common sense by then. I truly hope that a credible alternative emerges and that we can be reunited as a nation. Divide and Rule has been practiced for centuries and people need to be more cynical. Just not too cynical. If the leavers are right, we will see improvements but if not we will regret this for generations.

  158. Gail Stirrup says:

    I voted out …not because of any of your reasons….I can remember as a child a country called England….A proud nation of People…Not a Nannie state told what to do…We made our own laws.Unions fought for our holidays our sick pay maturnaty leave not the EU…. We traded with countries .We had a flourishing industry now look at it tatters no work for our young nothing…I want to be proud of being English again not British or European…Now instead of fighting let’s unite stand together fight for the future of this great land called England…And Yes We can do this !!!!!

    • frpip says:

      I’m from Scotland 😉

      • Susan says:

        And I come from the UK, and love the Scottish people who are very good friends of mine

      • frpip says:

        Susan, I’m from Scotland. I also am from the UK. I was pointing out that the previous poster was using Britain and England interchangeably – which is often a problem up here in Scotland, when we feel excluded from the narrative. Scotland is also in the UK.

      • Jane says:

        We have the same problem in Wales. The way things are going with Wales not being represented on the Union flag it will be an English flag. Have to say that it is my opinion that many, not all I hasten to add, many people who consider themselves English have a tendency to be arrogant with regard to the rest of the UK. Funny thing is that they love living in Wales but then treat us as being ever so slightly odd and a little less intelligent than themselves. Its very annoying you know!

    • Steve Gough says:

      And there you have it. Gail apparently doesn’t even ‘believe’ in Britain. It’s England only that counts. Stuff you Scotland (obviously), and Wales (despite the Welsh having voted for Exit). No mention of Northern Ireland and the can of worms this decision will inevitably open up. Well Gail if you can remember a separate country called England you must be extremely old to still be around since before the Act of Union 1707 when the crowns were combined, so I suppose I should congratulate you on your longevity, if on absolutely nothing else.
      This whole identity question is riddled with the potential for bigotry and division. An extremely toxic nest poked vigorously by the Exit campaign. Gail considers herself English to the exclusion of everyone else. I consider myself British rather than English because I was born in Kenya before independence and spent 8 years of my childhood in Hong Kong – then a British (not an English) colony. My step father was a Scot, my mother was Welsh/English and I have lived all my adult life in England. To cap it all my wife is of Irish descent, which means that my two children are by blood half Irish – but they consider themselves British. So all in all you may understand why Gail’s views on these issues are completely alien to mine, quite apart from the massive factual inaccuracies and misapprehensions she seems to labouring under.
      If you want people to unite it makes sense not to alienate through sheer ignorance large groups. I cannot imagine the circumstances in which people like Gail and me might find common cause to unite, beyond some huge conflagration like a world war.
      This mess has been brought about in part by English nationalist fantasists and I refuse to be a cheerleader for them or encourage their delusions. In short – you couldn’t be more wrong Gail.

      • Jane says:

        Well Gail is right in a way. If Scotland and Ireland have their way they will leave. That means the Union flag will only have a great big red cross on white background upon it. Wales is a principality due to English invasion many moons ago. So we will be left with the English flag. I am of mixed origin, English, Welsh with a bit of French back in 1700s. As I have had my identity taken from me I have decided to go with the country of my birth, Wales. I did not however vote to leave the EU as I can remember too what it was like before joining the EU. I admire my grand daughter for her wonderful acceptance of all nationalities. She’s working in France at the moment mixing with sane human beings some of whom have been extremely distressed by the events of the last few days. No, I don’t like Nationalism when it is extreme.

  159. Great post, well done. Let’s hope they do stick to it and take them to task the second things don’t go their way. If I hear any moaning from those who voted out about the hell to come, I will certainly not hold my tongue. Dark, dark times. And as for the ‘let’s unite’ chorus, hmm fiddledee dee off. Keep strong x

  160. David jones says:

    I love your passion. I get why you are angry, why you are dissapointed but consider this :

    The teens and early 20s people saying their future has been taken away. People couldn’t get jibs after university before the referendum.

    72% of 18-25 turned out to vote. That’s great stats. But where we’re they during th last general election. If they hadn’t voted for conservative then we wouldn’t be having a referendum.

    You act as if David Cameron and his cronies would of kept their promises. Because let’s be honest they haven’t done so far in the parliament.

    The French and the Germans are still going to trade with us. Time will tell how good or bad it will be but for once the country made the decision. We have to live with it. All these petitions and threats don’t so anyone any good. We have to get through this together.

    No one believed the NHS figure. Well anyone with common sense. People feel remorse for the decisions they made when voting. Well fool you for not doing research. The biggest decision of a lifetime and you decided to have a protest vote. Thought you would have a laugh a joke I’m the polling booth. Congratulations you change the country forever.

    Don’t act like Cameron would of done what he said h would do. He is corrupt. Or did you forget Panama papers and electoral fraud and Syria how quickly people forgot about people’s actions when they don’t get what they want.

  161. RobM says:

    I came across this post by referral yesterday (sorry frpip, I’m a devout atheist and didn’t initially realise your persuasion) and it struck a chord with me. This morning I posted a comment about my thoughts on the impact to the UK system rather than EU which seemed well received. Revisiting tonight I see it has generated a lot of traffic. Thus my thoughts now:

    Yesterday I was angry, this morning sanguine and this evening refreshed. To have this amount of debate has re-instilled my confidence in UK politics after many years of indifference (by me and everyone else). I haven’t seen this since I were a lad and Thatch was taking on the miners. Vitriol aside, I think this is a moment of opportunity we haven’t had in a long time. Collectively, let’s not waste it.

    • frpip says:

      Don’t apologise for being an atheist Rob. I have plenty of atheist friends, and often we agree on more theologically than I do with my Christian friends… Completely agree that, if we can get rid of the heat, we can keep the passion and make things happen.

  162. Mary Hansen says:

    Britain can rise again…our forefathers did. It’s time to stop whingeing and get on with the job!

  163. Yes that’s democracy – we can vote them out if they don’t deliver. We can’t vote the EU out if they didn’t deliver. That is why the EU will fail

  164. Rob says:

    I’m a leaver, and I fully agree with this article.

    I voted out so that the people can take back control of it’s government.
    I would love to see EVERYONE involved in holding the elected to account. They have no excuse to ignore the will of the people. The EU will not be forcing their hand any more.

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  167. JNzuve says:

    I fully agree with this article

  168. Kate Lines says:

    Do you know what I am now getting tired of all these post brexit jabs so the majority voted leave get over it, the leave have voiced what they think and so have the remain so let’s just stop with all the jabs against leave and concentrate on making this move to a new future everything we want it to be to work that great Britain can get its industry back and we can make Britain a successful country governed by its people rather than Brussels. As such we will have more of a say I n the running of our country and if it ends up we’ve been lied too we have the power to sack them and get someone who lives up to their promises more power for the people to run there own country as all countries should.

    But the time for all this is now passed the leave are steadfast and so are the remain , but now we need to concentrate on making brexit work instead of arguing about it all the time please as a nation let’s move on and what we can to make it an success, I emplore you.

    • Jane says:

      Kate, to whom are you pleading? We are no longer a United Kingdom. We can’t move forward we are stuck in the middle of political wrangling. We can’t identify who is part of the UK yet let alone start putting this mess behind us. Its no wonder the Remainers are annoyed. No matter how much we are asked to unite, be strong and move forward we can’t. The Brexiteers have made a mistake they need to admit it.

    • Nope says:

      Lol, Kate, a >2% majority isn’t a convincing one, nearly half of voters disagree with you. So saying “get over it” doesn’t solve anything. What you should be doing is reassuring us that you’re going to make those you supported accountable, and not just duck out after you’ve had your little “protest” at the “establishment”.

  169. Anonymous says:

    does it matter now which way you voted,the decision has been made and now is the time for everyone to pull together and make sure it works for us

    • Jane says:

      But that’s the problem you have to want to pull together and want to make it work. The Brexiteers should have had this plan in place before campaigning instead of accusing the Remainers of scaremongering. How can I fight for something that I can’t identify as doesn’t exist. This was self destruction carried out by 52% of 75% of the population. Look at the figures!

  170. Diego Bincoletto says:

    telescoper says:
    But in the meantime, Cameron has resigned and we’ll get a new right-wing government with new policies without a General Election having taken place. It’s a coup.

    We are used to that in Italy.
    Our current ‘Prime Minister’ Renzi is the third in a row.

  171. Vanessa says:

    There is a flaw in this argument. Whose feet should they hold to the fire? All political parties (except UKIP who fortunately are not in power) wanted to Remain. For once, we cannot blame them (or the majority of them anyway) for what has happened. Nor can we expect them to keep promises they didn’t make or agree with. The notion that £380 million a week could go to the NHS instead of the EU was always laughable. What about our farmers who receive a good proportion of this back from the EU currently? What about the cost of securing our borders as we will need to do if immigration is to be restricted? What about the cost of all the renegotiations?

    Boris must be really alarmed at the prospect of actually winning the contest for PM. He is someone whose feet really should be held to the fire? I volunteer to light the flames.

  172. lloydrshawl says:

    My only question would be.

    Did the person who wrote this always practice what they preach. In other words have they always held the political leaders they have voted for in the past to the same uncompromising standard they demand now.

    Or have they continued to vote for openly dishonest people all their voting lives. Did they ever look the other way if it suited their bank balance. And are only discovering the idea of personal accountability and ethics now things did not go their way.

    Just a question all should ponder .

  173. You have absolutely nailed it! I wish I could write like you, well done!

  174. Werdna says:

    Will people stop whining about Brexit, what is done is done. It is obvious that both sides were economical with the truth. Anybody who believed what they were told needs a brain transplant.
    When David Cameron was asked by Andrew Marr if he would represent the UK in the event of the British population voting yes. He answered he would, then promptly resigned when the population voted for Brexit. Proving that you cannot trust a politicians word. Teresa May has been given the messy end of the stick let her get on with the job in hand. Like Margaret Thatcher before her, she’s got bigger balls that any of the male politician.

    • frpip says:

      Just to clarify Werdna, I wrote this blogpost the day of Brexit, so I’m not sure I can be accused of still whining about it. But having said that I’m not going to give up on political efforts to make Brexit less horrible than it might be. The referendum was not a football game, I don’t stop simply because I lost one vote. The hard brexit which some Tories are seekign is not only damaging in my view, dishonest in what was presented to the public, but feeds a narratice which I believe is xenophobic and will make the lives of those who are foreign born in this country more difficult. So with respect, I won’t stop whining.

    • Jane says:

      Ummm, not sure that you can hold Teresa May up as an example of having been “GIVEN” anything. Didn’t she stand for office having changed her mind. Think its more of a “if I sit on the fence I may get the top job” from Teresa May. Think we all have to realise that anyone who believes that they are capable of telling others what to do is full of self importance. A necessary evil some might say or anarchy rules. Have you ever stopped to think why intelligent human beings would be prepared to pay vast sums of money to those in power to be told what they can or can not do? As I get older I worry about our attitudes towards freedom of thought, movement etc. Really we are all quite mad in accepting that some others think that we need to be managed. Its a difficult one which is why its so important to get it right. We’ve definitely got it wrong this time so can we please start MANAGING these people that are paid to do the right thing.

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